BRZ after Cayman S and M3... is it a downgrade? NOW WITH VIDEO!

[Chauntalei]

Originally Posted by thill

I paid roughly $29K out the door for my BRZ Limited brand new (even with some options). I would love for someone to show me where I can buy a used Cayman S (that was in good/excellent condition with under 70K miles and a clean accident history) for even close to that price. The cheapest used Cayman S I see within 200 miles of where I live is almost $10K more.

My friend just bought a one owner, 2007 Cayman S, 50k miles, for $30k. They're out there, but you really have to be patient. It took him months of searching before that one came up.

[cuddefred]

Thought you guys may like to know... in Oz a 2007 base model Cayman will cost around 70K, 2010 around 85K while the BRZ and 86 can be bought brand new for between 34-40K depending on the model.

It's a no-brainer which is better value over here :happy0180:

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by s0sl0w

The real question we should be asking here is why did Wolfpack buy a BRZ if he thinks it's so goddamn inferior to everything else out there.

Two things. 1) Don't put words in my mouth (I never said that) and 2) pull that stick out of your ass.

I will agree that part of the reason I got the BRZ is because I decided I needed a rear seat. But the lack of power has been a glaring fault since the day the engine was broken in.

I paid roughly $29K out the door for my BRZ Limited brand new (even with some options). I would love for someone to show me where I can buy a used Cayman S (that was in good/excellent condition with under 70K miles and a clean accident history) for even close to that price. The cheapest used Cayman S I see within 200 miles of where I live is almost $10K more.

thill, 2 months before I purchased my BRZ I test drove a gorgeous cobalt black 2006 Cayman S. Not a scratch or dent on her, clear bra paint protection on the front, lovingly owned by a PCA member. Only flaw I saw was a tiny crack in the windshield. 70k miles for $28,500. I was ready to sign the papers then and there, but the dealership selling it only dealt with European cars and wouldn't offer me more than wholesale for my S2000. Next day it sold to someone else

tl;dr good Caymans are out there for under 30k - you just need to be patient.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Unless that lighter weight comes with a better power to weight ratio and superior handling I don't really see how this is a measurable parameter that anyone cares about, in this discussion. Am I allowed to counter that by saying the Cayman S is better because it has a lower roof line?

Seems like you're arguing over trivial semantics here.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Given that the Cayman outperforms the BRZ in every performance metric I don't understand why the 200 lb weight discrepancy makes any bit of difference here.

Fun factor. The BRZ, like the Miata, is a blast to toss around at street-legal and auto-x speeds partly because of its low weight.

In the non-driving-dynamics column, there are the rear seats (like you, I also need them), larger cargo area, quieter cabin, more comfortable ride, absurdly easy oil changes, better real-world fuel efficiency (listed since it's not just a cost issue to some people), and hypothetical** track reliability.

Some of those attributes may not matter to you, but they matter to others.

** = The BRZ is unproven, but AFAIK all it needs is upgraded brakes for serious track duty (and better tires if you're competing). From what I've read, the Cayman needs more done to it, which in addition to cost can be about convenience and reliability.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Fun factor. The BRZ, like the Miata, is a blast to toss around at street-legal and auto-x speeds partly because of its low weight.

In the non-driving-dynamics column, there are the rear seats (like you, I also need them), larger cargo area, quieter cabin, more comfortable ride, absurdly easy oil changes, better real-world fuel efficiency (listed since it's not just a cost issue to some people), and hypothetical** track reliability.

Some of those attributes may not matter to you, but they matter to others.

** = The BRZ is unproven, but AFAIK all it needs is upgraded brakes for serious track duty (and better tires if you're competing). From what I've read, the Cayman needs more done to it, which in addition to cost can be about convenience and reliability.

Eh, I dunno man. I don't understand this "fun to drive at legal speeds" thing. Every time I've had a huge smile on my face it was from taking an on/off ramp at waaaaay faster than legal/recommended speeds

I just need a rear seat for my dog, so the rear hatch area that the Cayman S has is a tempting alternative because it could probably serve the same purpose (my dog is just 25 lbs).

BRZ just needs upgraded brake pads for track duty - the physical size of the braking hardware is more than large enough. As to the Cayman's brakes I dunno what you've read but they don't need any modification for track readiness (other than maybe pads). I say that after talking to countless owners at Porsche track events I've attended. Otherwise the Cayman doesn't need any modifications UNLESS you run R comps. Then you'll need a baffled oil pan (for 987.1 models - 987.2 doesn't have that problem).

[Ammonia]

Originally Posted by Rosso_Corsa

...

Hey I saw your review on bimmerboost or bimmerpost, one of the two. Excellent review. I also made the transition :happy0180:

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by Deslock

and hypothetical** track reliability.

Some of those attributes may not matter to you, but they matter to others.

** = The BRZ is unproven, but AFAIK all it needs is upgraded brakes for serious track duty (and better tires if you're competing). From what I've read, the Cayman needs more done to it, which in addition to cost can be about convenience and reliability.

Ok, here we go again. More assumptions, not facts. Just what you've read on the internetz, which we all know is always correct.

1) Brakes. Brake pads need to be upgraded for both 987 and FT86 platforms for track use.
2) Cooling. In both cars oil temps can run high and additional cooling may be needed. In a 987 it is easily solved with an OEM 3rd radiator
3) Oiling. Zero issues in a 987.2. The integrated dry sump system works well and there is no oil pressure loss with high Gs. If you doubt this, I can show you my logs. In a 987.1, there are potential issues with oil starvation when running slicks (not R comps like NT01). It is unknown if the FA20 will have oil starvation issues. Certainly a possibility since it is not a dry sump engine. Nobody in the track forums here seem to be running slicks to test the possibility, and nobody has posted oil pressure logs. If you have data on this, please share.
4) Fuel starvation. Zero issues in a 987. People have run into fuels starvation issues in the 86 with increased grip and power. If you look at the saddle design of the fuel tank in the 86, you can see why this is a problem

Let's stop drinking the kool-aide, and go over the evidence before making bold statements

[DJ_Joee]

Originally Posted by Brzetto

As far as I know they don't come with those, he also has clear side markers too so maybe he installed both.

the canadian spec brz comes with the pioneer aviv x930bt (x9310bt is the subaru number) and that includes that microphone over the mirror witch i also have on mine although i dont have clear side markers though

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Eh, I dunno man. I don't understand this "fun to drive at legal speeds" thing. Every time I've had a huge smile on my face it was from taking an on/off ramp at waaaaay faster than legal/recommended speeds

lolol i think the statement refers to where the threshold of fun is. In spirited driving, the purest form of fun can be found at the near limits of the vehicle. seeing as how the limits of the frs can be reach very easily with a low power/low grip ratio. You can reach this level of fun without really going faster than the posted speed limit.

In contrast, a R32 GTR i drove, it was an amazing machine, sure i had a smile on my face....but before i was able to find where the sweet spot of the car is, where power and performance just sings to you through your hands and feet, i had already been going 80mph. Just shy of exploring the limits and i was going too fast to test the capabilities of the car.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Eh, I dunno man. I don't understand this "fun to drive at legal speeds" thing. Every time I've had a huge smile on my face it was from taking an on/off ramp at waaaaay faster than legal/recommended speeds

Heh, yeah I probably should've written "at near street-legal speeds" rather than "at street-legal speeds". Anyway, WingsofWar explained what I was getting at.

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Ok, here we go again. More assumptions, not facts.

{snip}

Let's stop drinking the kool-aide, and go over the evidence before making bold statements

Woah, assumptions and bold statements? I called that part of my comparison hypothetical, and qualified my comments with "AFAIK" and "from what I've read". Maybe it wasn't worded well, but it was hardly a bold statement.

[Nathan Atkins]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I can't speak for an M3, but having spent a lot of time driving Cayman S's (and even base Caymans) in my opinion the BRZ is 100% a downgrade. Other than cost of ownership I can't think of a single parameter in which the BRZ comes close.

The only parameter where it is better is accessibility of the fun stuff. The car is like 75% of a cayman, but critically it is scaled evenly on all fronts, the power is down but the grip is too. The whole package works cohesively and is able to deliver the thrills at a more accessible range of speeds.

Not to mention what you hinted at in that while stuffing a Cayman into a crash barrier would be a financial disaster for 99 percent of us, stuffing a BRZ is acceptable to the whole upper quintile

And that is what were talking about here, using the car on the track and that was Toyota/Subaru's intention for this car, that's why they specifically sized the back seats not for children but to carry an extra set of wheels and tires. That's why the wheels are 17's because they're much less expensive to throw a set of Hoosiers on.

Cost of ownership when you are using a car at the track is an order of magnitude higher that that of a daily driver. They knew this and built to suit. So that is a huge benefit, maybe for some the cost of tracking a Cayman is acceptable and there is a market that caters to those people. This is a car for the rest of us, and its performance capabilities perfectly reflect that.

EDIT: I just realized how redundant my post was since i was responding to something a bit older, sorry! shouldve read the whole thread first!

[MikeM5]

I was considering the wait for the newest Cayman S prior to buying the BRZ. I absolutely LOVE the way the Porsche looks and drives, but being relatively young, I also thought there will always be more time to jump into a Porsche down the line and I wasn't exactly thrilled with ownership costs when I knew I would be driving the car a ton.

I currently also own an E90 M3. I have gone through four daily drivers (modded E90 335i, Land Rover Disco II, modded E36 M3 and E46 330i ZHP), but none of which were really great compliments to everything I've done with the M3 thus far - hence looking at the Cayman to satisfy the driving pleasure that I wanted in something I could DD for more than 120 miles/day. Given my personal circumstances and requirements, I ended up choosing the BRZ. It was super cheap to buy/insure, affordable to mod and needless to say, a perfect driver's compliment to my M3.

All that said, I can't say the BRZ is a downgrade necessarily, but more of a smart buy for how much fun it packs into such a pedestrian package. I'm certain a Porsche will come calling eventually, but I'm thoroughly enjoying my time with this little Subaru and I won't forget it.

[WolfpackS2k]

This is my personal view, but if you really want a Cayman I would recommend the 987 Cayman R. Better than any other 987 Cayman and on par with the new generation but with superior steering (hydraulic instead of the cursed electric).

[BlueLeader]

Nice vid bro! I also considered a Porsche although the Boxster S when i got the FRS. Like MikeM5 I didn't wanna have to sell my left testicle to pay for a tune up. Although I'm curious about your thoughts on upgrading the car. Of course, the previous cars you've owned had real balls in them, what do you think of an upgraded BRZ/FRS in terms of engine? Have you driven an SC/Turbo BRZ/FRS and if so how does that compare to the 911 or M3?