CAR Article: Subaru BRZ (2012) - more on the FT-86's shy sister car

[KevinDuMa]

Toyota vs Subaru...awd vs rwd...na vs turbo...my d*** vs your d***...I'm just excited the damn car is finally going to be released

[[es vi: eks]]

'If you're interested in motorsports, you should definitely come and see us at the Tokyo motor show' was the grinning engineer's reply… 'If you're interested in motorsports, you should definitely come and see us at the Tokyo motor show' was the grinning engineer's reply…

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

Hmmm. Wonder what that could mean. Maybe they're just showing the GT300 Legacy... Or maybe they've got a surprise for us

Maybe as well as seeing the real BRZ aswell as a rally/racing BRZ?


I just hope we get the BRZ here in NZ aswell as Toyota Verson.
I went into the local dealership and got told it all depended on what Subaru Australia wanted to bring in.
Subaru NZ used to have the choice what models were brought in to sell to the public.
In the past we had got a few odd ball models that never sold in Oz.
Like the Twin carb RX coupe (Possum Borne 1st Subaru Rally car)

So I hope that Australian CEO allows it in. I remember he was fearly anti bringing in anthing that wasnt AWD

[madfast]

Originally Posted by old greg

I have to say, this one's pretty weak. The transmission in question was also used in the Honda S2000 and the Mazda RX8/MX5. More generally speaking, Aisin (of which Toyota only owns 30%) also has also supplied transmissions to: Alfa Romeo, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Holden, Honda, Isuzu, Lancia, Land Rover, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Opel, Peugeot, Pontiac, Porsche, Renault, Saab, Saturn, Suzuki and Volvo. So the fact that this car uses an Aisin tranny doesn't really prove anything either way.

who's missing on that list? subaru. to me it speaks volumes. you and others may see it otherwise. but one has to wonder, why on earth would a supposedly subaru developed car, made in a subaru factory, use a toyota transmission that they never used before?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by KAuss

I'll bet you anything the first few mod photos we see of this new vehicle will be the "debadged" look...

I've been to too many forums of too many first year production cars to not win this bet LOL...

Not me. The only times my cars get debadged/rebadged is when the badges get stolen... stupid poor honda thieves.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by blur

I saw it like this

lol you saw it wrong

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by madfast

who's missing on that list? subaru. to me it speaks volumes. you and others may see it otherwise. but one has to wonder, why on earth would a supposedly subaru developed car, made in a subaru factory, use a toyota transmission that they never used before?

They also only used AWD transmissions and probably never had a need to look for anything other than the brand they were using.

Again though, who gives a crap?

[Ryephile]

I only give a crap that the transmission doesn't have gears made of papier-mâché like the Toyota C64 transmission and has shift quality approaching the Honda S2000.

After that, I'm in the same boat as Dave-ROR: I'm more interested in the driving experience than leg-humping the brand. Subaru and Toyota can both take all the credit/blame they want; I don't care as long as the car doesn't suck.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I only give a crap that the transmission doesn't have gears made of papier-mâché like the Toyota C64 transmission and has shift quality approaching the Honda S2000.

After that, I'm in the same boat as Dave-ROR: I'm more interested in the driving experience than leg-humping the brand. Subaru and Toyota can both take all the credit/blame they want; I don't care as long as the car doesn't suck.

And since Aisin made the S2000 trans (which is still the best shifting transmission I've ever driven, and that list of cars does span european, asian and american cars) I'm hoping the feel will be similar to it

Although the seating diagram image thing makes it look like a direct linkage won't be easily possible.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by old greg

That said, the guy at Subaru claiming the credit is the "deputy general manager of corporate communications". He's a PR guy, and I would bet multiple dollars that the guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow. I'm much more inclined to believe Tada-san's explanation, given that he was the guy in charge of the design team:

Each company tried to design half of a car, but that didn't really work. So the project evolved past X% Toyota + Y% Subaru and became a single team of passionate car guys, working together to make a car with the best DNA of both companies.

this

[old greg]

Madfast,
Did you actually read the second half of my post? I'm not in any way suggesting that Subaru did all the work. As I said in my last post, that paper pusher at Subaru is an asshat. Tada-san himself, the guy who actually oversaw the engineers from Toyota and Subaru who designed this car, the guy that half the people on this site regard as the next best thing to Jesus, was quoted (in the snippet that you posted in this very thread) as saying that it was one team that designed this car. Not a team from Toyota and a team from Subaru, but one team of people from both companies.


As for the transmission, firstly, Aisin =\= Toyota. Toyota owns 30% of Aisin. Aisin is its own company with its own engineers, its own factories and its own bean counters. The Aisin transmission in the Honda S2000 is no more a Toyota product than the Denso ECU in my WRX.

Honda had never used an Aisin transmission before putting the AZ6 in the S2000. Mazda had never used an Aisin transmission before putting the AZ6 in the RX8. The fact that no Subaru has had an Aisin transmission before the BRZ does actually suggest Toyota involvement, I agree, but it doesn't prove anything. That's my only beef with your argument. I'm not questioning your conclusion, only the logic you used to reach it.

[chulooz]

greg, where did you get the info on Masuda? He is credited in the article as being the product planning senior general manager, hardly a PR position.

Also, designing and engineering are two very different steps in production... the article is mentioning the latter.

[cyde01]

Tada is a chief engineer at Toyota. He has been heavily involved in the development of many Toyotas in the past including sports models and is credited everywhere with being the chief architect of this car. He wasn't the guy drawing design sketches at toyota's ED2 studio or Calty.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by chulooz

greg, where did you get the info on Masuda? He is credited in the article as being the product planning senior general manager, hardly a PR position.

Also, designing and engineering are two very different steps in production... the article is mentioning the latter.

I never said it was Masuda. From the article:
"Masashi Uemura, Subaru's deputy general manager of corporate communications, emphatically denied that the upcoming sports cars were Toyota-led, pointing out that platform and drivetrain development, production engineering and final assembly of both cars was handled by Subaru at Subaru facilities."

As for designing/engineering, it's a difference in perspective. I come from an engineering background, when I use the term 'design' it's almost always in the sense of engineering design, rather than stylistic or visual design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_design_process

[madfast]

Originally Posted by old greg

Madfast,
Did you actually read the second half of my post? I'm not in any way suggesting that Subaru did all the work. As I said in my last post, that paper pusher at Subaru is an asshat. Tada-san himself, the guy who actually oversaw the engineers from Toyota and Subaru who designed this car, the guy that half the people on this site regard as the next best thing to Jesus, was quoted (in the snippet that you posted in this very thread) as saying that it was one team that designed this car. Not a team from Toyota and a team from Subaru, but one team of people from both companies.


As for the transmission, firstly, Aisin =\= Toyota. Toyota owns 30% of Aisin. Aisin is its own company with its own engineers, its own factories and its own bean counters. The Aisin transmission in the Honda S2000 is no more a Toyota product than the Denso ECU in my WRX.

Honda had never used an Aisin transmission before putting the AZ6 in the S2000. Mazda had never used an Aisin transmission before putting the AZ6 in the RX8. The fact that no Subaru has had an Aisin transmission before the BRZ does actually suggest Toyota involvement, I agree, but it doesn't prove anything. That's my only beef with your argument. I'm not questioning your conclusion, only the logic you used to reach it.

yes, i agreed with what you said and so i didnt quote that part. i merely pointed out that subaru was not on the list of companies that use aisin transmissions. their omission is interesting to me. and i pose the question to those that believe subaru developed this car 100% (i never said you personally did), why would subaru use so much toyota tech if they developed this car all by themselves?

in terms of this discussion, aisin = toyota. as i have said, toyota uses aisin, and subaru uses jatco. so we have this car, built in a subaru factory, using an aisin transmission. and somehow that's not interesting to those who believe subaru developed this car 100%???

honda and mazda simply bought the transmissions. that is a cut and dry case. in this discussion, we're talking about a joint venture and the rumor that subaru fully developed the drivetrain. the fact is that a subaru with an aisin transmission IS out of the ordinary and DOES point to toyota involvement on some level. again, im not concluding anything. im simply presenting the facts for you to decide yourself...