Direct Injector Leaking

[Crossover Auto]

Same problem occurs on other direct injection platforms. The Mazdaspeed3/6 uses a different style DI injector, but has aftermarket seal solutions. The 86/FRS/BRZ is very similar to the VW injectors.


You need this tool to install the new teflon seals.
http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/oem-tool_2603845.html

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Crossover Auto

Same problem occurs on other direct injection platforms. The Mazdaspeed3/6 uses a different style DI injector, but has aftermarket seal solutions. The 86/FRS/BRZ is very similar to the VW injectors.


You need this tool to install the new teflon seals.
http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/oem-tool_2603845.html

This is the actual Toyota/Subaru tool:



https://toyota.spx.com/detail.aspx?id=1037&g=29

[Hima]

Hi guys!
I have the exact same problem!
I'm in the next few days will be in this competition and I urgently need to replace the Seal-fuel injector. Who can help and send them by priority mail? DHL or something very fast) I can send payment is required!
By the way, what kind of answer to the problem?

[Crossover Auto]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

This is the actual Toyota/Subaru tool:



https://toyota.spx.com/detail.aspx?id=1037&g=29

its the same style tool in the other vag injector tool kit that also has the slide hammer adapters for removal. if you have that one, you don't have to buy another one. one die expands the seal to slide over the injector, the other ring compresses it back down.

[Carwhisperer]

So I got all 4 DI replaced at my dealer. Still on the same stock flash I've ever had. Got my car last summer. Hopefully this crap doesn't happen a 3rd time. The service manager told me ethanol is terrible for the stock DI's. Is gas just crappy in around the west coast area? The SM said a bad tank of gas can easily cause this as well, not matter how you drive it on pump gas or e85.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Carwhisperer

The service manager told me ethanol is terrible for the stock DI's. Is gas just crappy in around the west coast area? The SM said a bad tank of gas can easily cause this as well, not matter how you drive it on pump gas or e85.

Shouldn't matter, you should be able to run this car on 87 E10 with no issues, otherwise there is a problem in the design. With how tightly controlled the creation and shipping of gas is in this country "bad gas" is practically a myth at this point, it's very rare.

It will run better and last longer with the correct gas but this isn't anything you should even be thinking about under 150k miles with a stock vehicle, even if it does see the track once every month or two. More aggressive than that though and you start asking for things to break (eventually over time in a reasonable fashion, track duty wears cars out faster no matter what anyone says).

It sounds like there's some confusion as to whether this knock occurs before the injector seals fail or if the knock is a symptom of the seals failing due to high temperatures.

As always insight is appreciated, super nervous to sign up for a track day even though I've been wanting to do it for months now...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Shouldn't matter, you should be able to run this car on 87 E10 with no issues, otherwise there is a problem in the design. With how tightly controlled the creation and shipping of gas is in this country "bad gas" is practically a myth at this point, it's very rare.

It will run better and last longer with the correct gas but this isn't anything you should even be thinking about under 150k miles with a stock vehicle, even if it does see the track once every month or two. More aggressive than that though and you start asking for things to break (eventually over time in a reasonable fashion, track duty wears cars out faster no matter what anyone says).

It sounds like there's some confusion as to whether this knock occurs before the injector seals fail or if the knock is a symptom of the seals failing due to high temperatures.

As always insight is appreciated, super nervous to sign up for a track day even though I've been wanting to do it for months now...

91 E10, the car should be able to run on. 87...

On the other hand, most guys I know that run E85 will test every fillup they get.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

91 E10, the car should be able to run on. 87...

On the other hand, most guys I know that run E85 will test every fillup they get.

The car should be able to pull the timing to prevent knock, there should not be any serious issues. If the manufacturer doesn't plan for that possibility it's poor design on their part.

I agree it shouldn't be put to the test but it isn't the end of the world, if the car can't take it I wonder what other corners they cut...

Also looks like I was making stuff up with the "bad gas doesn't exist" claim:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/...d-to-flood-bp/
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_yo...t_bad_gasoline

Guess I might start getting receipts for gas again after all.

[track_warrior]

Just FIY guys i have been running Shell 93 since day one and the failure still happened i would rule out 91 as the culprit.

[regal]

Originally Posted by track_warrior

Just FIY guys i have been running Shell 93 since day one and the failure still happened i would rule out 91 as the culprit.

And rule out knock/detonation as the culprit, that's what happens after the seals melt..
Why are one side of the engine showing clean injectors, with the other showing the heat damage? Is one side of the engine closer to the water pump ?

The issue is the heads get too hot long term, an ECU flash will not fix this IMHO.

[2forme]

Which cylinders are near the water pump?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by regal

And rule out knock/detonation as the culprit, that's what happens after the seals melt..
Why are one side of the engine showing clean injectors, with the other showing the heat damage? Is one side of the engine closer to the water pump ?

The issue is the heads get too hot long term, an ECU flash will not fix this IMHO.

On mikes both sides have one bad injector. It's your opinion that its heat related. That doesn't make it a fact. We need a lot more daa and testing to confirm the issue so pease stop trying to claim its heat without data. Toyota blames it on the tune and that's after they studied the issue.

[Stevo22]

This is a post from one of the other threads about this topic. I think it is important for everyone to see this if they have not already. I also think the reason that an after market tuner would not catch this is to my knowledge (which is limited) you get your car into a certain gear and do a "pull" on a dyno and they tune according to that. Rinse and Repeat until the tuning is done. During this process you do take the engine to redline, but do not "speed" shift through the gears at redline. Therefore they would never look at the transient ignition retard numbers because they would not see the detonation.

Originally Posted by Sithspawn

A quick heads up for everybody. This car has issues with detonation with the factory tune. I'm not talking about crappy Cali gas, but the ECU calibration guys at Subaru screwed up here.

This failed engine is a direct result of cascading failures due to a bad tune. Detonation is not normal and anyone who says so, ought to be doing something else for a living.

Detonation over time will damage engine internals. This is a given. The first component to fail on this engine with the detonating tune is the nylon collar on the direct injector tip. When that insulator cracks and breaks off due to detonation, there is nothing left to protect the injector seal from combustion gasses and the seal fails as a result. Then, the failed seal leaks, causing more detonation and misfires until the engine throws in the towel (or a rod).

This car detonates on the 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6 shifts when driving the car hard. By hard, I mean WOT and shifting with speed and authority. I have attached a log that shows detonation happening at exactly the shift points (you can see the engine speed rising to redline and the shifts). On the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts I logged, there was detonation resulting from too much timing advance which can also be seen in the log. Keep in mind that this is the factory tune and all I did was log what it does.

I have also attached a view of the factory Transient Ignition Retard Table that shows that it is not pulling jack for timing in the high rpm range. It does pull timing at low rpm and low load, but keeps the timing too far advanced up top. This is due to the fact that the base timing map is advanced a lot in the low load range at high rpm (which the engine sees when you close the throttle for your shift).

Apparently, there is a new flash from Toyota that fixes the tune...sadly, the tune is what ultimately caused the engine failures here people. Subaru needs to step up and fix their mistake.

In closing, while not everyone drives their FRS/BRZ like a madman, driving this car hard will eventually kill the engine with the stock tune. Tracking the car only accelerates the inevitable death of the engine since you are shifting like this much more often.

It should also be noted that @Sithspawn did another log after updating the transient ingnition table and stated that the detonation was gone.

[2forme]

Is it required to aggressively shift the vehicle for this issue to occur? Reason I ask, is I've seen one start misfiring who's owner very rarely, if ever, aggressively shifts.