Subaru BRZ Prototype Review by Car and Driver. Calls it a Knockout.

[Marrk]

@C4RBON: Were we crazy ever to think anyone could do a cool little car for $20k?

I don't know.

Some of the $20k or less cars that are on the market now would be cool, if they had RWD.

[C4RBON]

Originally Posted by Marrk

@C4RBON: Were we crazy ever to think anyone could do a cool little car for $20k?

I don't know.

Some of the $20k or less cars that are on the market now would be cool, if they had RWD.

I agree. If someone were too just make a fun, lightweight, rwd sports car that got good fuel efficiency and was cheap to insure, I'm sure tons of people would buy one for a daily driver, yet still be able use it for AutoX on the weekends.

Lets say around 2300 lbs and 180 hp should do the trick. And it shouldn't cost more than any other compact car because it would actually have less amenities.

Oh wait. 2008 is calling.

Where the hell did 28k come from? There just ISN'T 28k of car here, any way you look at it! The longer this drags on, the more I think the FT will be like GT5... an under-delivering, over-due disappointment. And that's just because they have been hyping it for so long, it may never be able to live up to expectations.

And I just realized the Gazoo FT86 race car has a gran turismo logo on it. Here's to hoping the next mustang is lighter.:happy0180:

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dark

Can we all get back into the topic? I'm kinda lost now.

Keep up.

[CyberFormula]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I also find it funny that out of the 4 cars you own 3 of them was well overpriced when they were brand new especially the NSX which I love.

I bought used for 30k.

Both GTI and Integra type r was 23k OTD brand new

911 is an antique from an uncle

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Leeky

Well i've re-read this article about the BRZ (you can see in the pictures too that its the Subaru and not the Toyota) and there is the mention of things like climate control and a space saver tyre. Plus there are spotlights/foglight in the bottom of the front bumper in the smaller picture on page2.

So if the Subaru has the full spec, is 2800lbs that bad? and is $28k that far off?

The base price Toyota version with no air conditioning, no stereo, no spotlights and a tire repair can rather than a spare this could well weigh in 2600lbs and cost around $20k

Im starting to believe this article......

2800 pounds and/or $28k would be bad. That article is BS anyway.

BTW, removing A/C, spotlights, and spare wouldn't save 200 pounds.

Originally Posted by suprachica79

It actually doesn't flatten out there. It continues to increase in power until about 8200rpm where it tops at 190-195hp at the wheels. So it still produces another 30+hp at the wheels, but at an additional 1.5-2k worth of rpm, is it worth it? I'd rather have more power at a lower RPM that is more useable for the kind of driving I do. And the tq isn't even close really, maxing out at 130-140ftlbs at the wheels at about 6500rpm. At 4000rpm, the s2000 has about 110ftlbs at the wheels.

Torque at the wheels doesn't work that way. Your wheels spin slower than your engine, and the transmission multiplies your engine torque so that your wheel torque is much greater (you maximize wheel torque at any given vehicle speed by using the gear ratio that puts you closest to peak power).

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

This may have been said already, but 210*5252/6500=170, so we know it makes 170lb/ft at least from 4000 to 6500. I'm sure it falls flat on its face after that though. Maybe I will do some math later but I think shifting at 6500 should keep you right in the power band with a close ratio 6 speed, so it should be plenty torquey when driven properly. Of course this still all depends on the weight. 170lb/ft in a 2800 car would be pretty lame I think.

I doubt it'll make 210 HP or 170 ftlbs.

Originally Posted by madfast

another perspective:

by definition, an auto-manual can't give you the same feel, the same involvement because you are only flipping paddles and/or moving the console shifter back and forth. BUT my question is, if you NEED the feel of shifting to "satisfy" you, then what does that say about the car you're driving? again with the ferrari example. i've never heard any review say this car lacks in any way because of the gearbox. why? because it doesnt NEED the "feel" you get from shifting to offer a satisfying driving experience.

your mom's civic? yes. a manual makes the car more fun. makes it feel faster cuz your mind is occupied with shifting. but in reality you're still slow as fuck. the 458? who needs the feel you get from shifting when you're in that car?

This isn't about need.

[Marrk]

And another thing: How is it that Car and Driver got everything so wrong? What was the point of Subaru taking the press out in an option-laden (assuming that that is the reason for the high weight and price numbers) AT example of what has been touted as a light sports car? It sounds like a day on which everyone was deliberately putting their worst foot forward. How is that supposed to build interest and anticipation?

[RWD_only]

No press release, no care.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: these magazine "write-ups" are garbage. C&D is trying to stir up shit. The public has seen this as a Toyota project from day one and Subaru is butt-hurt about it. Subaru would never compromise their 'AWD in everything' image unless forced to by someone like...Toyota. As stated by others, the amount of pictures, videos, and the VLN race itself speaks to Toyota's involvement in the project. If this was Subaru's baby, why didn't they field a car at the Nurburgring?

[dalli]

Originally Posted by RWD_only

No press release, no care.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: these magazine "write-ups" are garbage. C&D is trying to stir up shit. The public has seen this as a Toyota project from day one and Subaru is butt-hurt about it. Subaru would never compromise their 'AWD in everything' image unless forced to by someone like...Toyota. As stated by others, the amount of pictures, videos, and the VLN race itself speaks to Toyota's involvement in the project. If this was Subaru's baby, why didn't they field a car at the Nurburgring?

geez.... calm down please

Toyota has the $$$ and dont forget, they are sharing data with Subaru. If the cars will be the same mechanically, then Subaru doesnt have to waste $$$ for running another car. They will just use Toyota's Data and probably there could of been some Subaru employee's at the VLN race assisting with the 86.

[RWD_only]

I'm perfectly calm. I just find it absurd that Subaru is bitching to C&D about what is supposed to be a joint project. The quotes C&D uses colors Subaru as whiny and catty. Subaru did a tremendous amount of work, but chose to do it behind the scenes. If they want the public to know how much of their blood, sweat, and tears went into this project, then they should market or create an advertising campaign that reflects this.

If I was a Subaru exec. I would be most displeased with the engineers or whoever was involved with this article. It certainly could complicate the relationship between Subaru and Toyota.

Speaking of, can anyone speak to the rapport between the two companies (friendly, hostile, competitive??)

[dalli]

I agree

Is it possible that someone faked this and made it look official? one thing I do not understand is, if this is real then... Why would their figures be so ***** up. ( HP/torque/price/weight???)
( maybe it is real LOL, I hope not)

[coyote]

You kids make me laugh.

By the way, it's rapport.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by RWD_only

the VLN race itself speaks to Toyota's involvement in the project. If this was Subaru's baby, why didn't they field a car at the Nurburgring?

Because that's not something auto manufacturers usually do with pre-production prototypes. IMO, the VLN race speaks more to Toyoda-san's love of motorsports and his bromance with Dr. Ulrich.

There's a saying that goes something like this: Don't take a car to the track unless you can afford to crash it, and don't race a car unless you can afford to set it on fire and push it off a cliff. These cars aren't being efficiently stamped out in mass quantities they were hand built and in very small numbers. In fact there may only be two or three in all of Europe. And while the material value of these cars is irrelevant, they'll all be crushed in a few months anyway for tax purposes, they are still needed for testing. And even though the Gazoo Racing car came through unscathed, it's now useless for pre-production testing/tuning due to the welded in roll cage. Even if Subaru wanted to take a BRZ to go racing, I really doubt they could justify ruining a second prototype in order to do so.

[RWD_only]

Originally Posted by coyote

You kids make me laugh.

What do you mean, you mean the way I talk? What? I’m a little fucked up maybe, but I’m funny how, I mean funny like I’m a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

Originally Posted by old greg

Because that's not something auto manufacturers usually do with pre-production prototypes. IMO, the VLN race speaks more to Toyoda-san's love of motorsports and his bromance with Dr. Ulrich.

There's a saying that goes something like this: Don't take a car to the track unless you can afford to crash it, and don't race a car unless you can afford to set it on fire and push it off a cliff. These cars aren't being efficiently stamped out in mass quantities they were hand built and in very small numbers. In fact there may only be two or three in all of Europe. And while the material value of these cars is irrelevant, they'll all be crushed in a few months anyway for tax purposes, they are still needed for testing. And even though the Gazoo Racing car came through unscathed, it's now useless for pre-production testing/tuning due to the welded in roll cage. Even if Subaru wanted to take a BRZ to go racing, I really doubt they could justify ruining a second prototype in order to do so.

I think it's great PR. It shows the President of the largest (or there about) car company in the world is proudly standing behind his product. Not only that, it shows the confidence Toyoda-san has in the car; to preform and to live up to the expectations established for the FT-86.

At this point in the game, with only about a month left until the debut a loss of either a BRZ or FT86 would cause some panic but wouldn't produce a "WTF are we going to do?" scenario. As you said, I don't think Toyota would race the car if they couldn't afford to write it off (both from a testing/engineering or financial standpoint.)

[Tyandriel]

Originally Posted by old greg

These cars aren't being efficiently stamped out in mass quantities they were hand built and in very small numbers.

uuuh, wouldn´t say so. About 3/4 to half a year before SOP they start building on pre-series assy-lines and the body also comes out of proper tools and isn´t welded by hand anymore.
Of course, they don´t produce hundreds of them in a week and the cars aren´t "cheap" yet. But they don´t have only 5 or 10 of them. More sth. between 50 and 200.
The 2 to 5 cars they build for the catalogue photo sessions surely cost about 5 times more than this racer. Leave one of these out and you´ve saved enough to finance the whole racing weekend.