High Revv NA Setup?

[Sidewayss]

If you want to stay NA, drop in a 6cyl suby engine. EG33, EZ30R, EZ36R

It gets good at 0:25

[himbo]

Finally, someone who wants hi-po NA setup. I feel like this sort of setup suits the car better than a turbo. Not knocking on the turbo, but no one can deny the response from a tweaked NA setup.

I can't see why 8k rpm on the stock valvesprings is unlikely. I feel like with proper tuning, and the right I/H/E set up, 210whp is not impossible...

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by himbo

I can't see why 8k rpm on the stock valvesprings is unlikely. I feel like with proper tuning, and the right I/H/E set up, 210whp is not impossible...

7800 seems to be doing ok so far.

[dunphyjp]

i'm just waiting to see where the higher rev stuff goes. i'm perfectly fine with a great linear engine!

i'm also very happy that so many people have chimed in on this thread!!!!

[Turdinator]

Once I'm out of the warranty period i will be having a good look at a N/A build. The basic outline being quads, cams, light flywheel and pulley, big exhaust with extractors (headers) and an ECU. May look at compression and porting if it needs it.

I'm thinking ~272* cams with bigger lift should make for a good boost to the mid range and top end. It will be interesting to see how we can make quads work with the electronic throttle setup and whether the variable valve timing mechanism will cope with bigger cams. I'm hoping by the time I'm ready to mod the questions will be answered.

[JDM-dono]

Interesting thread. I was thinking about whether or not to stick with N/A or go FI. The idea of forced induction on what is already a high compression ratio engine puts me off in terms of reliability in the long run. Not saying that its not reliable, just saying I'm not comfortable with that idea.

I will most likely be going down the route of lighter internals and possibly stroker kit (depending if its actually worth it, read somewhere in previous posts that we have short stroke already, so see how things pan out), cams, intake, headers, exhaust (do I need a ECU tune?), in hope of achieving better response and a bit of power (not looking towards huge gains, car is pretty good as is). Though all this depends on how money goes lol...

[noAE86]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

Once I'm out of the warranty period i will be having a good look at a N/A build. The basic outline being quads, cams, light flywheel and pulley, big exhaust with extractors (headers) and an ECU. May look at compression and porting if it needs it.

I'm thinking ~272* cams with bigger lift should make for a good boost to the mid range and top end. It will be interesting to see how we can make quads work with the electronic throttle setup and whether the variable valve timing mechanism will cope with bigger cams. I'm hoping by the time I'm ready to mod the questions will be answered.

in our racing 4age 20v engines we used custom 302* cams and lin rogers built heads to make 236hp from the little 1.6. soft cut at 11,000 rpm and hard cut at 11,200rpm, 13.1:1 comp on avgas.

in this engine i think 272 might still be very "mild" 288 or 290 would be nice, and head work to optimise the new cams is a must, then you'd have to ditch the electro throttle setup for normal cable style for quads, and quads/high cams is a sure bet to be run on standalone ecu,
the one question i want to know is does the FA20 head have enough meat left to go oversized valves with the DI and sparkplug placement it might get too fragile,

[carbonBLUE]

my celica put out 212whp out of a stock 182 crank hp engine that was a 1.8L i wasnt running meth or e85 with 11.5:1 compression ratio

this engine reved to 9500 intake/throttle body/intake manifold/cams/headers/race back exhaust/13.1:1/reworked head/titanium valves..ect ect... compression ratio/e85 should put down 250whp easily i would say 235 with the current 7450 rpm redline

this will also come with time for parts have to be designed properly, also NA hp is mainly effected by headflow rates, the numbers i listed may not be possible if the headflow cant support the needed air, porting and polishing should help with this but dont expect serious gains

i ended up selling some of the parts and reverting back to mostly stock with 182-185 whp, i was still pretty quick ;P but did miss the 30whp in my 2450 lb car

this has been thoroughly discussed before

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2636

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...pirated&page=1

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...pirated&page=1

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by noAE86

in our racing 4age 20v engines we used custom 302* cams and lin rogers built heads to make 236hp from the little 1.6. soft cut at 11,000 rpm and hard cut at 11,200rpm, 13.1:1 comp on avgas.

in this engine i think 272 might still be very "mild" 288 or 290 would be nice, and head work to optimise the new cams is a must, then you'd have to ditch the electro throttle setup for normal cable style for quads, and quads/high cams is a sure bet to be run on standalone ecu,
the one question i want to know is does the FA20 head have enough meat left to go oversized valves with the DI and sparkplug placement it might get too fragile,

Yeah 272* is kinda mild, i run 288* in my Celica but its a completely different kettle of fish being an 8 valve dohc. But I worry about the FA20s rev-ability. 86mm isn't the best stroke for revs, the 4AGs are only 77mm from memory. And then there's the poor rod/stroke ratio we have in the FA. I'm wondering if the odd bent rods in the FA are designed to improve the side loading

Given how the FA20 revs on stock cams of around 250* I'd say 272* will give it legs over 8500rpm. But this is all guess work. We really need someone to flow the heads and see how they go.

I hadn't even thought about oversizing valves. But you make a good point about meat in the head.

[EJ20]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

my celica put out 212whp out of a stock 182 crank hp engine that was a 1.8L i wasnt running meth or e85 with 11.5:1 compression ratio

this engine reved to 9500 intake/throttle body/intake manifold/cams/headers/race back exhaust/13.1:1/reworked head/titanium valves..ect ect... compression ratio/e85 should put down 250whp easily i would say 235 with the current 7450 rpm redline

this will also come with time for parts have to be designed properly, also NA hp is mainly effected by headflow rates, the numbers i listed may not be possible if the headflow cant support the needed air, porting and polishing should help with this but dont expect serious gains

i ended up selling some of the parts and reverting back to mostly stock with 182-185 whp, i was still pretty quick ;P but did miss the 30whp in my 2450 lb car

this has been thoroughly discussed before

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2636

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...pirated&page=1

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...pirated&page=1

You Asus folks are crazy I mean, for example, glenn booth (1 of my heros) has made 190kw (~260whp) on his Beams powered RA celica I think he was running some 300* cams on a 2.0L block, 12:1 cr, and so much head work and his car rev happy to 9500 rpm


So, in FA applications I think its possible, but not now maybe after 3 or 4 years from now. WOW we might see someone crazy eough to hit the 10K rpm mark and I'm sure it will come from either Japan or AU

Edit: lol I was thinking you were in AU,,,, hehehhe :P

[serialk11r]

Oh, the heads might actually be a problem on this engine. Direct injection is picky about how the air flows into the cylinder, so you may completely ruin basically everything below 3000rpm or so if you port and polish. arghx7 said that the ports are probably "medium flow" in the sense that they introduce some tumble motion but not as much as typical DI engines thanks to the D4S setup.

Right now I am guessing the power is limited primarily by cams (and intake manifold), but once you start increasing the rev limit the heads might become the bottleneck, and there's pretty much nothing you can do at that point. The next FA20 supposedly has tumble generator valves and no port injection to address the issue with tumble flow and DI not working well at low engine speed, but that no doubt sacrifices some flow as well. How much we'll have to see.

My guess is Subaru will try to pursue high end power in the next FA by putting high flow ports with TGVs for low end combustion stability. I think the next FA20 might be something to anticipate, for this reason (it also has cooled EGR by the way, so there is no benefit to using D4S if they pull this off correctly). TGV and high flow, sounds like an oxymoron, but this is the only explanation, they could just use high tumble ports instead if they didn't care about flow.

[Nafe]

I am, and have always been, very interested in doing n/a tuning on this thing. Full exhaust, headers back, intake, bigger cams (i also had a rough figgure of 272 or 288deg in mind), tune and possibly a mild compression upgrade.
Lighter, forged pistons and rods would be nice, but a very expensive route.
I will also eventually get a lighter flywheel. Won't help hp, i know, but may help response
One thing that *may* be an idea is sticking with a single throttle body, but increasing diametre. Sure, it won't flow as much as ITB's, but may make things easier give the electronic throttle, and will still certainly provide gains.

[JohnATL]

I plan to stay N/A and pair it with maximum DD weight reduction. Goal is 225-250 WHP and 200-300 lbs reduction (Driver weight is calculated in my goal

[Nafe]

I don't have a power figure in mind, as power figures don't mean anything to me at this stage. There is no point aiming for a certain power figure when I don't have a stock figure to compare to. As far as I am concerned the *the difference* in power figure from stock dyno run to the power figure after vehicle is finished is what matters. Dynos all read differently.