FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

tC is not a 16sec car. It's a mid-low 15sec car. I was talking 2005+ years.

Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ression_page_3



Highly doubt the 2011 tC runs 16s either. Pretty sure DSport ran faster than 16secs when they tested it. Nov. 2010 issue.




tC traps at 88mph. As mentioned above. Looking at the price difference between the two cars as well as their numbers on paper....tC 160hp FWD vs a turbo RWD and still running the same 1/4 mile times equates to

GC 2.0T = SLOW for what it is. It is to heavy. I was heavily considering buying one until I read it's performance specs and was sorely disappointed.

When we first got our tC, I had the rear seats removed and on factory Scion tires was running 15.1-15.2sec 1/4 mile times.

I will say the GC's 2.0T motor responds great to a turbo upgraded system and makes good power.

PTuning worked their magic on the 2.0T

Gotcha. I was just going off what I found for the new '11 tC. Didn't realize you were talking about the older model. I agree the GC 2.0T is heavy but it sure does have potential for tuning. Be interesting to see what they do with the new model.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

define smooth

1JZGTE

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

tC is not a 16sec car. It's a mid-low 15sec car. I was talking 2005+ years.

Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ression_page_3



Highly doubt the 2011 tC runs 16s either. Pretty sure DSport ran faster than 16secs when they tested it. Nov. 2010 issue.




tC traps at 88mph. As mentioned above. Looking at the price difference between the two cars as well as their numbers on paper....tC 160hp FWD vs a turbo RWD and still running the same 1/4 mile times equates to

GC 2.0T = SLOW for what it is. It is to heavy. I was heavily considering buying one until I read it's performance specs and was sorely disappointed.

When we first got our tC, I had the rear seats removed and on factory Scion tires was running 15.1-15.2sec 1/4 mile times.

I will say the GC's 2.0T motor responds great to a turbo upgraded system and makes good power.

PTuning worked their magic on the 2.0T

I should also add that some of that could be due to gearing (not saying the GC isn't heavy because it is but there is more to the picture than just weight to power). Gearing plays a big part of the equation.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I for one hate V-6's, so any sports car with a V-6 is automatically off my "must have" list. The 350Z, 370Z, and Infiniti G's sound awful and are overweight inefficient blobs lined with a Tupperware interior. If I were given a 370Z I'd be pissed and get rid of it immediately. I'd rather have a Corvette 'cuz at least it has a luscious burly V-8.

The VQ sounds great IMO esp with some aftermarket exhaust, and is really a blast revving up to its limits.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Dimman

1JZGTE

haha, silky smooth, like butta. The stock turbines are both a blessing and a curse.

Near instant full boost thanks to ceramic turbines makes for a steady power curve....course, if you go over 14psi, you can kiss 'em goodbye.

[midenginebias]

I think the 370z, FR-S, Rx-8, S2k, Genesis Coupe, Mustang, Camaro, and Miata are all comparable. They're all performance RWD cars who achieve performance in different ways. Most cars from that list are within the same price bracket, with the Mustang, Genesis Coupe, and Camaro bridging the gap from mid 25k to 35k pricing.

It just really depends on what the customer wants from a car. Everyone just places different values on aspects of a vehicle and in most of our cases, reduced weight is better value than horsepower. Otherwise, we'd be on a Mustang board.

Really, all I want is an Rx-8 with a reliable drivetrain and better mpg. If that's the FR-S, that's what I'm going to get. I've yet to find a better sports car that has the best compromise of driving dynamics in this price range than the Rx-8. If I had lotto money, I'd go for the next higher level compromise of driving dynamics in a Lotus Evora.

[iff2mastamatt]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

I think the 370z, FR-S, Rx-8, S2k, Genesis Coupe, Mustang, Camaro, and Miata are all comparable. They're all performance RWD cars who achieve performance in different ways. Most cars from that list are within the same price bracket, with the Mustang, Genesis Coupe, and Camaro bridging the gap from mid 25k to 35k pricing.

It just really depends on what the customer wants from a car. Everyone just places different values on aspects of a vehicle and in most of our cases, reduced weight is better value than horsepower. Otherwise, we'd be on a Mustang board.

Really, all I want is an Rx-8 with a reliable drivetrain and better mpg. If that's the FR-S, that's what I'm going to get. I've yet to find a better sports car that has the best compromise of driving dynamics in this price range than the Rx-8. If I had lotto money, I'd go for the next higher level compromise of driving dynamics in a Lotus Evora.

Exactly, I just want good bang for the buck. This thing doesn't need to be a GT-R, but the Z isn't out of reach for comparison's sake.

[Archer256]

I didnt read through the thread, and if what i say has been pointed out already i apologize in advance.

They will compete, not because of specs but because of price. The FT is going to start in the 20's...START. Z is about 35k on a sport package but we dont know what packages Scion/Toyota is going to offer. Look at the tC that thing maxed out is like 32k. that's 3k cheaper than the Z! Now the Ft will start at a higher point so who knows maybe "pimped out" itll hit 35k, in which case it will be fighting for sales against a Z. Car competition isn't just about specs, and stuff to the mass market is comes down to price. Lexus's meteoric rise in Luxury was due to a large part on their ability to bring equivalent luxury of a Benz of BMW for a lower price point AND have higher reliability. THey still do it - IS-F (2011) model straight up matches a M3 now and they start at a cheaper price point. What does that mean? Well the car enthusiast will probably look at extreme details like transmission, ratios, etc. But the average joe will look at the 2 cars, see equivalent specs but the IS-F has a cheaper price point and it looks sexy so why not make a smart buy?

Same thing for this car, if it hits anywhere near the Z's price points people will then consider - well if i shell out some more money i can get this other car. Same way how Toyota can eat Civic sales - spend a little bit more money possibly and i can get this nice beast from Scion.

[iff2mastamatt]

Originally Posted by Archer256

I didnt read through the thread, and if what i say has been pointed out already i apologize in advance.

They will compete, not because of specs but because of price. The FT is going to start in the 20's...START. Z is about 35k on a sport package but we dont know what packages Scion/Toyota is going to offer. Look at the tC that thing maxed out is like 32k. that's 3k cheaper than the Z! Now the Ft will start at a higher point so who knows maybe "pimped out" itll hit 35k, in which case it will be fighting for sales against a Z. Car competition isn't just about specs, and stuff to the mass market is comes down to price. Lexus's meteoric rise in Luxury was due to a large part on their ability to bring equivalent luxury of a Benz of BMW for a lower price point AND have higher reliability. THey still do it - IS-F (2011) model straight up matches a M3 now and they start at a cheaper price point. What does that mean? Well the car enthusiast will probably look at extreme details like transmission, ratios, etc. But the average joe will look at the 2 cars, see equivalent specs but the IS-F has a cheaper price point and it looks sexy so why not make a smart buy?

Same thing for this car, if it hits anywhere near the Z's price points people will then consider - well if i shell out some more money i can get this other car. Same way how Toyota can eat Civic sales - spend a little bit more money possibly and i can get this nice beast from Scion.

Yup. Enthusiasts make up a small portion of sales, but sometimes purchasing a car (like the Z) makes you an enthusiast. However, the person going into the dealership will be an average Joe nonetheless.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Archer256

I didnt read through the thread, and if what i say has been pointed out already i apologize in advance.

They will compete, not because of specs but because of price. The FT is going to start in the 20's...START. Z is about 35k on a sport package but we dont know what packages Scion/Toyota is going to offer.

There will be no package in the U.S. Scion does not offer trim levels nor packages, rather, the car comes base standard with certain luxuries and the rest is just options. If you WANT to add every little thing Scion has on the car, then you're a complete moron. Not only are the accessories overrpriced, but a bunch of them are just downright unnecessary.

If what Toyota EU said holds true for the U.S., and other markets, we can expect the LSD differential to come as standard trim for the Scion, meaning possibly coming out to around ~$24k. Even a base 370Z @ $31k is still beyond most peoples price point (And doesn't come with LSD). The FR-S will be available to a broader market of buyers.

Say someone is just in the market for a sportS coupe. They see the FR-S and 370Z. Well, what if they want that aero spoiler on the car, or skirts? To do that on the 370z they'd have to get the sport package, which bumps it up to $35k. For the FR-S, they spend at most $1k (the wing itself is usually only $500) and can get the same aero add-ons the 370Z has(this is something that'll effect an average joe's purchase price, sure). So now $25k vs. $35k, thats not a chump change difference. They test drive both cars and find them both to be very fun, but with the FR-S the savings is just so great, they go ahead and buy it.

Thats why, at price point, they DON'T compete. The 370z is not an available purchase option for the broader market. The FR-S IS. And when it comes down to people who really don't care much about the car, rather than having a sports coupe to have a little fun in, price is a huge factor. So is gas savings, which the FR-S will win in this department too. They'll ALSO see the FR-S is more practical as a 2+2, instead of a strict 2 seater, and THIS will factor into the joe's decision.

Also have to factor in individual state sales taxes. Here in TN, the $35k 370Z adds on $3447 dollars in taxes alone. The FR-S, @ $25k, would be $2462, so really, you're buying a near $38k car against a $27k one. Thats not "just a little bit more money", thats literally adding hundreds onto your monthly payment, or, adding thousands necessary to your downpayment just to make the monthly payments affordable.

And thats using $24k as a starting price point. Honestly, I don't see the FR-S being that expensive in base form. It just can't to compete with its REAL competitors, the Miata, and Gen Coupe, unless said base model comes with certain sport features standard that the other car's don't on their base model.

Damn, I should look into becoming a salesman for this car, lol.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Toyota dumbed this car down to appeal to a broader range of people.

Desert, honestly, you have GOT to have been trolling this forum the entire time you've been here. They didn't dumb down anything, this was the car's original design intent.

Entry-level (low MSRP), light weight, balanced, RWD coupe pushing a N/A 2.0L 4cylinder. You can't dumb down something unless its intentions were higher to begin with. That has been what we've been given, in terms of information, ever since the mk1 was released in Oct. of '09. You want dumbed down?

How about the super early reports from Japan of this car coming with a sport version of Toyota's 1.5L and dishing out ~120hp. If anything, from my very earliest of hopes, this car was improved, DRAMATICALLY.

Haven't dumbed down shit. Just people like you coming here, expecting a Ferrari for low 20k.

And yes, people want this car in the low 20k's because that's what was advertised from Toyota from the start. That's whats brought many people to these forums to be potential owners.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

I think the 370z, FR-S, Rx-8, S2k, Genesis Coupe, Mustang, Camaro, and Miata are all comparable. They're all performance RWD cars who achieve performance in different ways. Most cars from that list are within the same price bracket, with the Mustang, Genesis Coupe, and Camaro bridging the gap from mid 25k to 35k pricing.

It just really depends on what the customer wants from a car. Everyone just places different values on aspects of a vehicle and in most of our cases, reduced weight is better value than horsepower. Otherwise, we'd be on a Mustang board.

Really, all I want is an Rx-8 with a reliable drivetrain and better mpg. If that's the FR-S, that's what I'm going to get. I've yet to find a better sports car that has the best compromise of driving dynamics in this price range than the Rx-8. If I had lotto money, I'd go for the next higher level compromise of driving dynamics in a Lotus Evora.

On basics the cars you mentioned are the same basic formula for a RWD but there is a market gap between them based on what the starting price is. That is where most of us are drawing the lines. Another big factor would also be fuel economy.

To be honest if I decided today to purchase a brand new RX-8 or 370Z tomorrow I wouldn't. Why? Because I could purchase either a brand new EVO or STI that costs the same and I'd rather have those for certain reasons.

The V6 pony cars are much closer in their starting price and while they can be compared they aren't the closest competitor to the FT86 design.

I personally am looking for a fun RWD car that costs below 27K starting, weighs under 2700lb. and can get over 20mpg city (my car rarely needs to use the highway so the combined and hwy mpg are of no relevance to me). The only car in my eyes that comes close is the Mazda Miata, but to each his own.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Toyota dumbed this car down to appeal to a broader range of people. It could have been something great, but they decided to put a nice candy shell on average.

Competition in this price range that will SMOKE this car include:

Ford Mustang V6
Ford Focus ST (Turbo)
MazdaSpeed 3 (Turbo)
Subaru WRX (Turbo)


Plug $3000 into the latter 3 and you'll get a BEAST. Plug $3000 into the FR-S and you'll get a slightly faster fart box rwd Scion Tc.

I now really understand the issue here.....people don't want a GREAT car because it will price them out of the market.

Ohhhhhh well......looks like I'll be riding out the 350 until I can pay cash for a GTR

Then what did you expect from this car? $40k over 400hp sports car? Nothing against you buying GT-R instead of this car, it's your opinion and decision.

Without reading what this car was made for and just insulting it isn't right. You just saw the outer design and assumed/thought this car gonna be fast/faster than Z or whatever over 300hp cars and not reading actual info on this car, so please don't insult this car cuz it's "appeal to a broader range of people".

edit - Nevermind, I just edited myself. LOL

[midenginebias]

On basics the cars you mentioned are the same basic formula for a RWD but there is a market gap between them based on what the starting price is. That is where most of us are drawing the lines. Another big factor would also be fuel economy.

I disagree on market gap on the basis that, the cars are comparable and cover a variety of price points between 25k to 35k anyway. How much is that power hardtop Miata? Starting MSRP just over 27k. That would break into 30s with options. Right at a base 370z coupe. You say fuel economy, and yet the EPA highway mileage ratings for a Mustang v6, Camaro v6, and a Miata are all right at 30mpg.

If it's so much weight based on value, the Mustang v6 can be had starting at just over $22k. 300+hp 19/31mpg 6spd. The Genesis Coupe is already a 2+2 with over 200hp and 20/30mpg so, why wait for the FT?

The only car out of the price range is just the 370z. Used S2ks depending on mileage are all 25k-35k. Mustangs, Camaros, Genesis Coupes, RX8s, and Miatas? All between 22k-35k depending on trim and options.

To be honest if I decided today to purchase a brand new RX-8 or 370Z tomorrow I wouldn't. Why? Because I could purchase either a brand new EVO or STI that costs the same and I'd rather have those for certain reasons.

Then technically, you're not truly in the market for an FT86. If you want over 200hp and decent gas mileage, what is stopping you from a WRX or a Rallyart Lancer? 25k. Over 200hp. 20+mpg. 4 seats.

The V6 pony cars are much closer in their starting price and while they can be compared they aren't the closest competitor to the FT86 design.

It's not about "closest competitor," but rather is it comparable to the FT86? Absolutely. At the core, they are sports cars with difference performance values. Want HP and cruising in a convertible? Get the Mustang. Want the handling and looks? Get the FT. Simple.

I personally am looking for a fun RWD car that costs below 27K starting, weighs under 2700lb. and can get over 20mpg city (my car rarely needs to use the highway so the combined and hwy mpg are of no relevance to me). The only car in my eyes that comes close is the Mazda Miata, but to each his own.

And just think, the Miata hits the price points that the FT86 is projected at anyway.

I don't consider the FR-S to be a great "value" vehicle. The competition has great or greater attributes at the same price point of 25k. However, because I personally value lightness over horsepower, or a boxer over a big v6, then to me, the FR-S is a greater value than any S2k, Mustang, Camaro, etc., at the same price point. But, people who are looking for handling, horsepower, and big numbers should be looking elsewhere.

It's almost like the GTR vs. LF-A comparison. Ignore the price point. The GT-R puts up all the great numbers, but there are attributes the LF-A has that the GT-R can't match. Same goes for a WRX and FR-S.