Spun Bearings and now more Issues

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Yes the pump is inside the cover but it isn't open to the cover. It's all sealed off under all those plates as seen in the video and away from the edges of the cover where all the packing is. So no galleries would be directly exposed. The problem would come from the packing draining back into the pan and then clogging the pickup filter. But after playing with this packing I am not even the slightest bit convinced that excessive packing leads to material breaking away and falling into the engine. This crap is incredibly elastic. I pulled at some of the excess packing on my engine just to see if it was plausible and it doesn't just flake off. You really have to work at it to make it break off. Actually MRT has another video where he pulls at this stuff and although it breaks off you can see it takes some stretching. I've used various FIPGs in the past and this Threebond stuff is nuts. It doesn't get hard as a rock and brittle. My opinion is that early models had issues not from excess breaking off but from excess oozing into galleries. Not in the timing cover though because the packing is not even remotely close to any galeries. It's the 4 drains from the heads, the cam caps (which the recall instructions warn about) and the packing between the block halves that would block galeries. But my theory doesn't explain the failures after repacks. Maybe those failures come from packing being scrapped off during cleaning and then landing in the pan which would end up in the pickup filter. But it's hard to believe techs would be that careless.

But It's easy to visually inspect every gallery on this car with the exception of the crank. All the others you can look from one end to the other (after removing plugs). To check my crank I simply blew compressed air in there to see if anything came out. Nothing did. There was no packing in my drained oil, oil filter, pickup filter, pan, pump, galeries, OCV filters, cams, cam gears... nowhere. All I found was packing blocking 60% of one of the 4 drains leaving one of my heads. I'll just have to assume that was the cause of my failure. I've seen others report blockage of the 5th main where the halves are glued together but mine wasn't blocked there.

I suspect if Toyota/Subaru finds a pattern to these post-recall failures that they will issue some sort of revision to the documentation. It would be interesting to see what that revision is.

I didn't mean that the pump was open. It is where you pour the oil in. It is the very beginning of the whole system. There are several reports of the sealant being found inside of failed engines. You have read them. There are even pictures someplace.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I didn't mean that the pump was open. It is where you pour the oil in. It is the very beginning of the whole system. There are several reports of the sealant being found inside of failed engines. You have read them. There are even pictures someplace.

I think most people would consider the sump or maybe the pump to be the start of the oil system and not the filler neck. You sort of make it sound like the cover is under pressure and excess packing is going to get blasted away when in reality oil simply drains through it with gravity. I just don’t see packing breaking away because some oil dribbled on it. Anyways, I’ve not see the reports of loose packing in the pan. I’ll have to do some digging tomorrow.

[Tcoat]

I don't think I am explaining it well. The timing cover requires massive amounts of sealant. Some of that sealant can either break off and float around in there or be forced over passages when the cover is installed. All of the oil that goes into the car enters and passes through that big open area and those passages. It would not take a whole lot of sealant to block a passage enough to reduce flow and pressure on an engine that already has fairly low flow and pressure. The video I linked explains this concern very well even if he doesn't specify sealant and just refers to "gunk".
Is it because it is just to easy an explanation that people are convinced there must be something else and they are on a quest for a more complex mystery cause? Sometimes the easy explanation is right. I have followed these failures for 5 years and based on the info at hand this explanation just makes sense.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ne#post3054764 Post 22
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...45#post2210345 Post 158
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107959
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121863
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...51#post2825351 Post 133

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I don't think I am explaining it well. The timing cover requires massive amounts of sealant. Some of that sealant can either break off and float around in there or be forced over passages when the cover is installed. All of the oil that goes into the car enters and passes through that big open area and those passages. It would not take a whole lot of sealant to block a passage enough to reduce flow and pressure on an engine that already has fairly low flow and pressure. The video I linked explains this concern very well even if he doesn't specify sealant and just refers to "gunk".
Is it because it is just to easy an explanation that people are convinced there must be something else and they are on a quest for a more complex mystery cause? Sometimes the easy explanation is right. I have followed these failures for 5 years and based on the info at hand this explanation just makes sense.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ne#post3054764 Post 22
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...45#post2210345 Post 158
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107959
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121863
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...51#post2825351 Post 133

The packing on the timing cover only gets close to one oil hole to the right hand head and even that one has a decent size gap between it and the packing. The packing also have a grove that the packing sits in which should keep it someone isolated. You would have to go crazy nuts with the packing to get it to bleed into that gallery. The only other thing the packing routes around are the 32 bolt holes.

Here is a clip from the manual. There are some places with packing in the middle of the cover that people may confuse as oil galleries but they are not. I marked those in red. They are just bolt holes. The one and only oil gallery near the packing I marked in green. The only other gallery in the timing cover is the pickup from the pan which you can see is very far from packing.



All I am saying is I don't see the timing cover being the big risk with regards to packing. It's the block halves and the heads.

Edit: That MRT video you linked to is the one I was referring to in my other post. Look how hard he pulls at that packing to break it loose.

The first post you link to is talking about the #4 main being blocked isn't even near the timing cover. It's caused by over packing the block halves which I've already pointed out.
The second post does support your theory where they say packing blocked the gallery marked in green in my image.
The third post you link to is talking about the same area that your first link was talking about. It's between the block halves.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

The packing on the timing cover only gets close to one oil hole to the right hand head and even that one has a decent size gap between it and the packing. The packing also have a grove that the packing sits in which should keep it someone isolated. You would have to go crazy nuts with the packing to get it to bleed into that gallery. The only other thing the packing routes around are the 32 bolt holes.

Here is a clip from the manual. There are some places with packing in the middle of the cover that people may confuse as oil galleries but they are not. I marked those in red. They are just bolt holes. The one and only oil gallery near the packing I marked in green. The only other gallery in the timing cover is the pickup from the pan which you can see is very far from packing.



All I am saying is I don't see the timing cover being the big risk with regards to packing. It's the block halves and the heads.

Ya. Sorry. Reading back it most certainly looks like I meant only the timing cover. I just sort of picked it as the most commonly removed part. To be more clear my thesis covers any and all parts that use the sealant. The issue is sealant wherever it comes from not the cover.
I just don't understand what happened to using proper gaskets really.


Pretty difficult to say how much force he used. Looks to me like he just randomly picks some off with zero effort.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ya. Sorry. Reading back it most certainly looks like I meant only the timing cover. I just sort of picked it as the most commonly removed part. To be more clear my thesis covers any and all parts that use the sealant. The issue is sealant wherever it comes from not the cover.
I just don't understand what happened to using proper gaskets really.


Pretty difficult to say how much force he used. Looks to me like he just randomly picks some off with zero effort.

I'm in total agreeance with you then.

To separate the packing you have to cut at it. In the recall instructions they specify an SST which is simply a wire with handles on the ends. I used a combination of techniques to separate my cover and in the process you end up with packing all over the place and bits that are still attached but dangling. Those are the parts he pulled off with ease but if you watch a little farther past the timecode in your link you will see him pull at one that hasn't been tampered with and you will notice he has to stretch it a good bit before it snaps. That was the experience I had with mine. I'm pulling at it and thinking, "yeah no way this shit falls off in the engine".

I could see someone doing a repack and while cutting it open bits could drop into the pan without knowing. The wire tool seems like it would do a better job of sort of heating the packing and melting through it making much less mess. Kind of like those wire tools for cutting PVC. They basically melt through the pipe rather than cut it. If I have to pull mine apart again I'll be getting one of those tools.

[Ultramaroon]

Anything small enough to get past the screen in the pickup tube is then captured by the oil filter.


I have a feeling that something else is going on here.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Anything small enough to get past the screen in the pickup tube is then captured by the oil filter.


I have a feeling that something else is going on here.

But loose packing from the clean up would probably be big enough to not pass the pickup filter which could be catastrophic. If it makes it past the pickup and clogs the oil filter it's no big deal because it will just bypass. I just can't believe a tech would be so careless to contaminate it with that much trash. I just can't think of anything else that could go wrong with the oil system with regards to a cover repack or recall job.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ermax

But loose packing from the clean up would probably be big enough to not pass the pickup filter which could be catastrophic.

That would be an awful lot of shit to suck up in there. I'm trying hard to take a reasonable stance because we both know how much Tcoat loves dealers. I don't want to set him off ranting about self-righteous DIYers again.

[BestFRS]

Replacing the short block with labor cost 4500 and I had the valve spring recall done at the same time.
When I got my car, the dealer had put a big scratch and dent on my from bumper. Every time they mess up my car.
Toyota and the dealer have easily spend at least 10k repair on my car. My extended warranty will run out in 1.5years. They extended the warranty due to all the issues I had.

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by BestFRS

Replacing the short block with labor cost 4500 and I had the valve spring recall done at the same time.
When I got my car, the dealer had put a big scratch and dent on my from bumper. Every time they mess up my car.
Toyota and the dealer have easily spend at least 10k repair on my car. My extended warranty will run out in 1.5years. They extended the warranty due to all the issues I had.

$4,500.... lol
They put forged piston on a closed deck block?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by BestFRS

Replacing the short block with labor cost 4500 and I had the valve spring recall done at the same time.
When I got my car, the dealer had put a big scratch and dent on my from bumper. Every time they mess up my car.
Toyota and the dealer have easily spend at least 10k repair on my car. My extended warranty will run out in 1.5years. They extended the warranty due to all the issues I had.

So they made you pay for the short block and labor?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Teseo

$4,500.... lol

They put forged piston on a closed deck block?

Well the short block is around 1800 and I wouldn’t be surprised if they charged 2700 in labor. It’s at least 24 hours worth of labor. The thing is he had the recall done at the same time which I would have expected to offset the labor cost significantly.

[BestFRS]

The short block is 2200, engine gasket is 300 and there are some seals/O-rings etcs that cost another 150.
Labor is 1700 (15.4hours)
It's all covered under warranty. Hope this is the final fix