Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Some manufacturers still care.

- Mazda made a big deal about the ND Miata matching the weight and size of the original NA, while boasting modern rigidity, safety and emissions.

- The first-gen FR-S at 2750 lbs. was pretty light for what it is (2+2 RWD coupe with an H4 engine).

- VW reduced the overall weight on the mk7 GTI platform (despite increased size and rigidity over the mk6), mainly by using more high strength, thermoformed steel.

- I remember when Ford tried to boast about the reduced weight of the s550 Mustang platform. It turns out their numbers were misleading, but at the very least they were trying.

I actually think as FE standards rise, we will just see more of an emphasis on lighter weight.

The Mazda ND is a great success story in my book. My issue with it is mainly that it's just too small for me. I couldn't even stretch my legs inside it let alone the fact that I do love the small rear seats in my BRZ which I've used so many times for various reasons.

I still absolutely love the ND and if money was no problem I'd get one.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JR

Isn't it always .

Yes! This is one of my pet peeves when people think the manufacturers are some sort of not for profit enterprises and should be able to just make whatever a teeny tiny itsy bitsy portion of the driving pubic want for a price that wouldn't even cover half the cost of manufacture. I have been in the industry for 30 years and have never seen this attitude so bad as in the last 5. Cars are getting heavier. Yes but it isn't for lack of trying and pumping shitloads of money into new tech to fight that weight gain. Obviously I can not say how much but the money spent on reducing the weight of a set of rotors would shock people. That is one part of one system of the whole car. This same thing is being done for every single part. Right down to the very nuts and bolts.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

All aluminium body
Aluminum and titanium suspension and structural components
One piece un-sprung and barely padded seats.
Two seats smaller than 86.
Minimalist interior
Expensive lightweight wheels
Very doubtful would even come close to meeting US crash requirements.
If available here would be pushing $100,000

It is NOT your standard mass produced inexpensive coupe and to expect the same from such would be a pipe dream.

I see your point.

I don't know about the crash test nor the $100,000 price tag but say even if it did pass the crash test and was more reasonably prices at 60 or 70k US, that would still make it more than twice the price of a BRZ or MX-5.

oh well, I guess it is pissing into the wind

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

I see your point.

I don't know about the crash test nor the $100,000 price tag but say even if it did pass the crash test and was more reasonably prices at 60 or 70k US, that would still make it more than twice the price of a BRZ or MX-5.

oh well, I guess it is pissing into the wind

I will say with 95% confidence it would not pass the US crash tests or other safety requirements as built. It is an $80,000 car in Europe and by the time they made it pass here not only would it have gained weight it would have gone up in price. It is unbelievably expensive to get cars certified for import to the US.

[Dr. BRZ]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

All aluminium body
Aluminum and titanium suspension and structural components
One piece un-sprung and barely padded seats.
Two seats smaller than 86.
Minimalist interior
Expensive lightweight wheels
Very doubtful would even come close to meeting US crash requirements.
If available here would be pushing $100,000

It is NOT your standard mass produced inexpensive coupe and to expect the same from such would be a pipe dream.

If you were to gut the brz/frs to an extreme level, it would weigh between 2200 - 2300lbs something. Lighter than the alpine.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dr. BRZ

If you were to gut the brz/frs to an extreme level, it would weigh between 2200 - 2300lbs something. Lighter than the alpine.

2,280 to be precise
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42284

[JR]

What about Smart Cars? Apparently they have good crash ratings and only weigh about 1,800lbs. That would fulfill some peoples light weight and nimble requirements.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JR

What about Smart Cars? Apparently they have good crash ratings and only weigh about 1,800lbs. That would fulfill some peoples light weight and nimble requirements.

But for the size of them they shouldn't weigh more than about 1,000 pounds! They also suffer from weight gain to survive a crash. And at 89 HP their power to weight ratio sucks big time!

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

But for the size of them they shouldn't weigh more than about 1,000 pounds! They also suffer from weight gain to survive a crash. And at 89 HP their power to weight ratio sucks big time!

I had once a smart 2-seater. Not the current model, but the last one. Main advantage was as a city car. I could find a parking spot almost everywhere. The power wasn't much, but it was also really fun to drive on curvy mountain roads. I remember at that time an interview of Mercedes' CEO doing a similar comparison in Alps using a smart and a slk sports car. The smart could keep going with the slk without issues. The slk name was derived from sportlich (sporty), leicht (light) and kurz (short), but again it was a much heavier car and you could feel it in such roads. On the other hand, the smart was really weak and with no power on the highway. A slight wind could make it "unstable" and the top speed was very low.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I had once a smart 2-seater. Not the current model, but the last one. Main advantage was as a city car. I could find a parking spot almost everywhere. The power wasn't much, but it was also really fun to drive on curvy mountain roads. I remember at that time an interview of Mercedes' CEO doing a similar comparison in Alps using a smart and a slk sports car. The smart could keep going with the slk without issues. The slk name was derived from sportlich (sporty), leicht (light) and kurz (short), but again it was a much heavier car and you could feel it in such roads. On the other hand, the smart was really weak and with no power on the highway. A slight wind could make it "unstable" and the top speed was very low.

Oh no doubt at all. I had a highly modified 91 Geo Metro convertible for a while. It had a custom header and exhaust, an intake that didn't suck air from the engine compartments, a tune and some things I never did figure out. Probably took it up to a whopping 80HP but at 1700 pounds it worked. Was also lowered, had all blacked out lights and a deep green paint job. Looked like some sort of exotic sports car. With the mods and the 5 speed tranny it was fast as hell. Surprised many a wannabe street racer. Maybe that is what everybody would like.

Looked something like this only in dark green.

[JIM THEO]

LESS IS MORE...
I agree with first post but "lightness" costs and despite that BRZ/GT86 is a mass produced sport car sharing components from other Subaru models that passes successfully all crash tests, it's light enough for this price range.
If I could ask something from Toyobaru will be 100-150Kg less weight not the extra power many others ask for, once I test drove a Lotus Elise powered to 200+ps and it was much more fast than my STI on a local track.

[Lantanafrs2]

In the real world torque matters. Track fast and street slow don't cut it.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

In the real world torque matters. Track fast and street slow don't cut it.

Torque and horsepower share a linear relationship with RPM. The whole torque is better than power argument is perpetuated by muscle car idiots who like engines whose ability to make power is crippled after 4000rpm.

Downshift or upshift and drive the car in it's powerband. That goes for any car.

Both of these cars have a serious torque dip, but only one gets ragged on for it:

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Dr. BRZ

If you were to gut the brz/frs to an extreme level, it would weigh between 2200 - 2300lbs something. Lighter than the alpine.

It doesn't make much sense to compare the Alpine A110 with the BRZ. The Alpine is a 2-seater. You can compare it with the MX-5 RF and in fact the Alpine is not much lighter with all its "premium" materials.