SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[solort]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

So here's where I'll speculate. All the cars with good camber are FR-S. We know that the BRZ was tuned for more understeer and that at a minimum valving and spring rates were different. Could the BRZ struts be different, or there be some other variance between the cars that we're not aware of?

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Good point Chris. Time to compare stock FRS and BRZ struts. If anyone really cares

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

So here's where I'll speculate. All the cars with good camber are FR-S. We know that the BRZ was tuned for more understeer and that at a minimum valving and spring rates were different. Could the BRZ struts be different, or there be some other variance between the cars that we're not aware of?

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I actually brought this up before lol. Who knows if the frs has yet another "plus 1" against the brz when it comes to CStreet. Me and Leo both have\had brzs and both of us had the same camber. You and Mike are on the opposite side with the frs and camber. Could all just be a coincidence.

[markw]

Do the bars too, the TRD package is a really nice setup.

Originally Posted by solort

You are probably right. My first event in car was a blast. I snatched a set of TRD springs for $210 shipped and hope to install them before the event next weekend. Are the higher spring rates front to back appx the same differential or will the car understeer or oversteer more from the stock springs? My car with Cusco front bar and too much legal front camber is just right...

So I really just need Konis and get Lee Grimes to degas and custom valve them and I should be good to go.

I will enjoy running CS again. Chris Harvey and I had some good battles in the NB Miata days...

But I can't sell the ACR. I need a torque fix occasionally...

[Sammakko]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I haven't measured.

Lastly, I am not inclined to pull out my engineering stats book right this second, but I am positive I could mathematically prove that your test group is nowhere near a statistically significant sample..

LOL, supertroll over here. You haven't measured... but you KNOW you only gained .5 degrees. then finished your post by "threatening" to use maths.

[Biggins]

How many tenths of a second are you really gaining from that extra 0.5 of camber?

The most I could get at first was -1.1 LF and -1.0 RF with bolts. We did all the tricks a year later and got -1.2 LF and -1.0 RF. I forgot about it and just drove my car. If I eventually do the TRD springs, I'll do my best to get as much negative camber as I can and forget about it. I don't understand all the fuss over a little extra camber.

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by Biggins

How many tenths of a second are you really gaining from that extra 0.5 of camber?

The most I could get at first was -1.1 LF and -1.0 RF with bolts. We did all the tricks a year later and got -1.2 LF and -1.0 RF. I forgot about it and just drove my car. If I eventually do the TRD springs, I'll do my best to get as much negative camber as I can and forget about it. I don't understand all the fuss over a little extra camber.

FYI the quickest twin @ nationals last year didn't even max out the camber bolts. -1.0 Left and Right in the front.

[vroom4]

Originally Posted by Biggins

How many tenths of a second are you really gaining from that extra 0.5 of camber?

The most I could get at first was -1.1 LF and -1.0 RF with bolts. We did all the tricks a year later and got -1.2 LF and -1.0 RF. I forgot about it and just drove my car. If I eventually do the TRD springs, I'll do my best to get as much negative camber as I can and forget about it. I don't understand all the fuss over a little extra camber.

The different between 1.1 and 2.1 is huge.

[vroom4]

Originally Posted by solort

Good point Chris. Time to compare stock FRS and BRZ struts. If anyone really cares

I've used both, never got above 1.1 with any combination of speings, crash bolts and Koni inserts
This is with every pry method known to man short of damaging the strut.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

For somebody who is bringing up math and statistics into the argument, this was rather amusing.



That's some good info, perhaps it would be worthy to share it with the celica forums? Failing to see how this relates to the FRS/BRZ, I am prettty sure that we have enough data from various threads on here stating where camber falls with crash bolts.



So since you keep trying to make this personal and defensive. Ironically it's actually what I do for a living. The word "test" in my quote was in quotes for a reason. So in summary, you say my sharings don't mean squat, back that up by not having any data collected yourself and reference a different make/model that uses camber bolts in the upper and lower holes. Got it. I'm just going to say it one last time, I truly do not care, I am not protesting anything or will ever protest anything. I brought this up as the chatter is out there, some people care, some are bitter about it, some might get fucked by it(if it is every protested). Do whatever makes your boat float. Enjoy

You keep saying you don't care, but you keep writing essays about it.

At any rate, I made arguments against your points and you've tried to twist that into me somehow talking about irrelevant things. After this post I'm done, we can't have a productive argument like this.

Occams Razor, dude. If the Koni measures to be geometrically identical to an OEM strut, what is the most simple explanation for three people who get -2 camber? Secret black magic geometry (which you STILL have yet to put a valid explanation for) or that their cars simply got that much because strut cars vary by quite a bit?

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Sammakko

I'm a troll, so I'm going to put words in other people's mouths and then accuse them of being a troll. Brilliant! No one will ever suspect...

Fixed that for ya

[vroom4]

I do care, and I'd like to get this straightened out so I can advise people going forward. Either way, I just want to know where the discrepancy is.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by renfield90

You keep saying you don't care, but you keep writing essays about it.

At any rate, I made arguments against your points and you've tried to twist that into me somehow talking about irrelevant things. After this post I'm done, we can't have a productive argument like this.

Occams Razor, dude. If the Koni measures to be geometrically identical to an OEM strut, what is the most simple explanation for three people who get -2 camber? Secret black magic geometry (which you STILL have yet to put a valid explanation for) or that their cars simply got that much because strut cars vary by quite a bit?

I keep replying because you keep brining it up and making it personal. You turn a discussion into an argument like a 5 year old and quite honestly it is not even worth my time. I actually kinda hope you find out the hard way.

[solort]

Originally Posted by renfield90

You keep saying you don't care, but you keep writing essays about it.

At any rate, I made arguments against your points and you've tried to twist that into me somehow talking about irrelevant things. After this post I'm done, we can't have a productive argument like this.

Occams Razor, dude. If the Koni measures to be geometrically identical to an OEM strut, what is the most simple explanation for three people who get -2 camber? Secret black magic geometry (which you STILL have yet to put a valid explanation for) or that their cars simply got that much because strut cars vary by quite a bit?

So the people that have stock struts with camber bolts and then switch to full Koni struts with the same car and same camber bolts are getting lots more camber than their original struts (that seems to be the theory)? Comparing the 2 different struts and resulting alignment on the same car with same crash bolts should just leave the strut as the single variable...

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by solort

So the people that have stock struts with camber bolts and then switch to full Koni struts with the same car and same camber bolts are getting lots more camber than their original struts (that seems to be the theory)? Comparing the 2 different struts and resulting alignment on the same car with same crash bolts should just leave the strut as the single variable...

I don't know that anyone has confirmed alignments with nothing changing except for the Konis.

I know that I could do it, but it would require me taking a couple of hours and spending money to do so. I would have if I found any discrepancies between the struts as they measured, but I didn't, so it wasn't worth my time or money.

I aligned my car for the first time with Yellows, camber bolts, and TRD springs - I don't have a baseline alignment to work off of to know how far the alignment is from stock capabilities.