Odd one out; my 2nd test drive

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by 86'd

When you're so discerning, it can sometimes be a curse.

Yes, it can indeed be a curse!

Originally Posted by Turbowned

It seems to me that the BRZ out-of-the-box is better than anything else out there for less than $50k. The aftermarket can and will handle any minor shortcomings.

....

So it's no Exige... that was to be expected. But I would never want to drive an Exige every day, either!

I'd say other than the Miata, I agree. ...and I also agree, DD'ing an Exige is a recipe for becoming numb to the world by day 4.

[Racecomp Engineering]

With regards to the dampers, it does have a little too much high speed. It does jiggle around a bit more than it should. I feel like the bushings up front leave a lot to be desired in terms of feel....something we have to get into. A few things to work on.

And we'll definitely offer you a drive in our car and ask your opinion on future work!

- andrew

[jdrxb9]

Thanks for the honest review - good stuff to keep in mind for my upcoming test drive.

I'd like to hear a bit more about this comparison from your first review:

Originally Posted by Ryephile

... It reminds me of the first time I drove a Lotus Elise. Great chassis, crap engine. Bolt a supercharger on the Elise and it's a brilliant and well-rounded car. ...

I was seriously considering an Elise prior to the 86, but just couldn't justify it as a DD. On my test drives, I thought the engine was fantastic - reasonably powerful at lower rpm and then amazing up top. Realize I'm comparing to modestly powerful cars (my experience tops out at an FD RX-7). The unassisted steering and 'clunky' direct transmission were also plusses in my book. What kept me out of one was the rattly interior, the lack of utility, and the vulnerability of the front and rear clams. Now I'm obviously not expecting the BRZ to be an Elise, but I was hoping it will be a lot closer to an Elise than to a Mustang V6 Thoughts?

[Jah1mon]

I just wish this car had a powerplant similar to a SR20det. Something detuned for the chassis but easy enough to uncork some power from it.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

With regards to the dampers, it does have a little too much high speed. It does jiggle around a bit more than it should. I feel like the bushings up front leave a lot to be desired in terms of feel....something we have to get into. A few things to work on.

And we'll definitely offer you a drive in our car and ask your opinion on future work!

- andrew

Sounds excellent. I look forward to seeing how you improve the BRZ and look working together in the future.

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

Thanks for the honest review - good stuff to keep in mind for my upcoming test drive.

I'd like to hear a bit more about this comparison from your first review:


I was seriously considering an Elise prior to the 86, but just couldn't justify it as a DD. On my test drives, I thought the engine was fantastic - reasonably powerful at lower rpm and then amazing up top. Realize I'm comparing to modestly powerful cars (my experience tops out at an FD RX-7). The unassisted steering and 'clunky' direct transmission were also plusses in my book. What kept me out of one was the rattly interior, the lack of utility, and the vulnerability of the front and rear clams. Now I'm obviously not expecting the BRZ to be an Elise, but I was hoping it will be a lot closer to an Elise than to a Mustang V6 Thoughts?

Honestly, the BRZ doesn't resemble the Elise or the Mustang. it's sort of in the middle of those two on the Scale of Hardcore. The Elise isn't a fair comparison as it gives up virtually every facet of luxury and comfort in the name of lightness and performance. The Mustang isn't all that comparable either as it's emphasis is on stature [big & tall], and good ole fashioned muscle. It's aura is totally different, and it takes a different mindset to appreciate it. The BRZ does feel pretty close thematically to the Miata, albeit roomier, wider, quieter, decent cargo utility, and an obviously stiffer feeling chassis. These attributes are what initially piqued my interest in the BRZ. If you love driving the Miata [even if you're a closeted enthusiast], then you'll at least appreciate the BRZ.

[groucho]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Tough question! I don't think there's anything better per se anywhere near the price range. I went and drove a Coyote-engine Mustang GT and that was a blast but the scale of that car is simply too big for me, and the ergonomics are archaic. I also love the Corvette but the interior is embarrassing. The Miata is always on my list but I'm going to wait it out and see what the ND is going to become, as the NC is my least favorite generation. I love the Boxster and Cayman, however buying a new one is financial suicide and buying a used one is a crap shoot for reliability. Basically the only sane way to own one is an extended warranty CPO, which makes it the kind of car I'd rather drive a friends than actually put in my garage. The biggest tempt out there is the possibility of the VW Bluesport. Mid-engine, convertible, and turbo-Diesel pretty much checks every box of awesomeness...but it's vaporware at the moment.

So, to rephrase your first sentence here, there's nothing better in its class at the moment.

It seems to me that any of "issues" you've seen are to be expected on a car that is not designed to be particularly hardcore. Let's not forget that Subaru and Toyota did not know what to expect here in terms of sales, and being an all-new car, that had to appeal to the largest demographic possible in order to recoup the dev costs. Sports cars historically don't sell well and when they do, the sales still dry up after a few years. (As Mazda knows all too well with the RX-8, and the Miata to a lesser extent.) That the BRZ is as amazing as it is, bone stock, is very impressive, and they appear to have built it with an eye to both factory and aftermarket modifications to raise performance quite a ways. It may not be perfect, but it seems to me that it's better than it needs to be and certainly better than I would have dared hoped that it would be.

The Elise/Exige are certainly not real fair competition, being another ~700 lbs lighter, mid-engined, and built by the company that knows handling like no other. They are full-on exotics, proud of their lack of luxury even. ("It's a proper Lotus", as the ad said.) You can pick one up for the cost of a BRZ, but as others have said - they'd make a punishing daily driver, plus you get a LOT of attention! Probably more than you'd want on a daily basis. They are awesome but I still prefer my Elan.

My initial test drive of an automatic BRZ certainly felt like it had a little bit of Lotus DNA in it (and several reviewers have noted the same thing); certainly not as razor-sharp but clearly a real sports car. And, it does weight less than the Evora!

I tried to hotlink this video in the middle of the message but apparently this forum puts the actual YouTube image in the middle if I do that!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XzBI2iN5UA"]Lotus Inspector - YouTube[/ame]

[PMok]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Sounds excellent. I look forward to seeing how you improve the BRZ and look working together in the future.



Honestly, the BRZ doesn't resemble the Elise or the Mustang. it's sort of in the middle of those two on the Scale of Hardcore. The Elise isn't a fair comparison as it gives up virtually every facet of luxury and comfort in the name of lightness and performance. The Mustang isn't all that comparable either as it's emphasis is on stature [big & tall], and good ole fashioned muscle. It's aura is totally different, and it takes a different mindset to appreciate it. The BRZ does feel pretty close thematically to the Miata, albeit roomier, wider, quieter, decent cargo utility, and an obviously stiffer feeling chassis. These attributes are what initially piqued my interest in the BRZ. If you love driving the Miata [even if you're a closeted enthusiast], then you'll at least appreciate the BRZ.

Ryan,
thanks for your honest review of the BRZ. Have you ever spent any time behind the wheel of either the 2nd Gen MR2 (SW20) or the 3rd Gen MR2 Spyder (ZZW30)? I ask because I used to own the former, and still own the latter... but thinking of trading in for the BRZ/FR-S. I'm sure an Exige owner may take exception to this comparison, but I always thought of my Spyder as a poor-man's Elise or Boxster, with a little more creature comfort and less of the no-compromise harshness of the Elise/Exige. Would appreciate any input you have if you had any experience with these cars to compare to.

[davesrave]

Ryan,
I spent all day thinking about your review of the BRZ as I went about work, drove my car, played golf, etc. To me, that is the best review of any, and I’ve read them all. Thank you. I feel I now know what to expect when I finally drive it. Your review touched on things that matter to me, because I will only daily drive it in stock condition, and, I expect to do that for the next several years. I still plan to go through with the purchase, though, because I like knowing that it will still thrill me in certain situations, while not being the best it could be in others. I’m not a numbers guy, more interested in the feeling I get when I drive. As you know, there isn’t one perfect anything, and when price is a consideration, balancing out all the positive and negative is what we all try to do. Without financial limitations, I’d be like Jay Leno and own everything. Your review makes me think this is still the one for me.

[Dimman]

Ryephile,

I've always been curious about your interest in this car since from my point of view you have a fantastically enviable setup with the Golf as a comfortable DD and the Lotus for visceral fun. Was the purpose to try and downsize the two into a single car? I just couldn't imagine it getting very close to the immediacy of the Exige, nor the comfort of the Golf.

And it looks like the missing torque did rear its ugly head...

(Would you take my hypothetical 170 lb-ft @ ~4800 at the expense of the first peak in the graph?)


Remember when I came to the conclusion about WHY I was wrong with the torque issue, and now carry that to the rest of the car and you will see a pattern I think.

We keep hearing that it is a ground up, enthusiast's sports car. It is not.

It is a huge compromise car. As if designed by a committee, in fact (but a really good one that had an enthusiast section). This showed itself in the engine tuning decision, to spread the torque into a the double-peak, rather than stack it higher up. This was a compromise for the people that are buying it because it looks nice, but won't play with it in anger.

Suspension will be somewhat similar, I think.

What the goal to me seems to be is to go after the former Celica owners (lots of them were the basic GTs) with the looks, reliability, economy, and daily comfort and practicality. But at the same time they attempted to go for credibility with the enthusiasts in the handling/dynamics. But doing so means that they can't stray too far to one group without losing from the other. Very difficult to please both. Given that target they did a good job. But they still had to paint with a broad brush.

But really we should be expecting this. The Integra wasn't launched with the Type R. That would've been marketing suicide. Hopefully the same happens here with the STI...

[was385]

A good review from a different viewpoint. This car is supposed to be great for the price, but the comparisons to far higher price point cars I feel is going overboard. If you're used to that higher level, this probably just won't stack up... which isn't surprising.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Ryephile,

I've always been curious about your interest in this car since from my point of view you have a fantastically enviable setup with the Golf as a comfortable DD and the Lotus for visceral fun. Was the purpose to try and downsize the two into a single car? I just couldn't imagine it getting very close to the immediacy of the Exige, nor the comfort of the Golf.

And it looks like the missing torque did rear its ugly head...

(Would you take my hypothetical 170 lb-ft @ ~4800 at the expense of the first peak in the graph?)

...snip...

The Integra wasn't launched with the Type R. That would've been marketing suicide. Hopefully the same happens here with the STI...

You bring up excellent points as always. My hope for the BRZ was to replace the Golf as my DD. I was willing to give up fuel economy and hatchback practicality to get back to everyday rear-drive fun and adjustability.

Regarding your missing torque, I would without hesitation take a 170 LbFt peak in exchange for the little bump at lower RPM. The gearing is close enough to stay in a narrow RPM window where the 170 LbFt would be. It would be worth it, IMO.

Good point on the ITR coming out after the basic model intro. The BRZ fundamentals are there, now we need the STI to polish it to perfection.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by eikond

I just typed out a long post, but somehow the system logged me out before I could finalize it..

So here's my shortened version..

I'm really glad I got to meet Ryan.. he's a great guy. It was really neat to get to talk cars with someone so knowledgible and experienced.

He clearly has a very refined taste in sports cars.. He's dialed in to the physics of handling and suspension in a way that very few BRZ owners and even testers are. So the analogy from DEC1 about the table wine vs. master vintage is a very good description.

Sounds like Ryan likes the car, but would prefer to wait for an upgraded version before he makes the purchase. I'm sure he won't be the only one to do that.

The point is.. Don't take offense to the fact that he has some criticisms of the vehicle. Understand that he is coming from a different experience perspective than most BRZ shoppers. He drives and races an Exige... the fact that he put a deposit down on a BRZ and really strongly considered buying it should be quite a compliment to the BRZ.

As for me.. I always try to keep price in mind when I think about the quality and performance of a car. It seems to me that it's the best in it's class in the mid $20's range. I think another $10k in mods could make it the best in it's class in the mid $30's, and could surpass most cars in the $40's as well. I'm in it for the platform.. I think the BRZ has a great platform and the rest of the details are all price vs. performance decisions that can be made in the future. Clearly Subaru built this car expecting people to modify it. The question is.. Can you create a better product with $10k in modifications than Subaru will offer for $10k more when they bring out an STI version? I'd like to think so..

Great post! To the OP, at the end of the day, its what makes you happy, not anyone else. 25-30K is alot of money to spend on something that just does not quite do it for him.

[SUB-FT86]

I wonder what STI would stand for? I know its Subaru Tecnica International but I wonder if for the BRZ it would stand for Sport Tuned Injected. Lol.