SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[ksconekiller]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Note that the loudest voice of them being illegal is someone who hasn't held them or measured them, but is rather asserting since you can get more camber they must be illegal, completely disregarding the legal factors that would result in a lower ride height and more camber.

Who is that? Someone on this board, or somewhere else?

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by ButteR

Get the crash bolts from a Subaru dealership. One per side, to replace the top bolt. ~ 5 degrees of camber.

For the part numbers, I believe they are still listed in the first post in the thread.

[RMP]

Originally Posted by ButteR

Get the crash bolts from a Subaru dealership. One per side, to replace the top bolt. ~ 5 degrees of camber.

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by markw

I did the scientific method. 16mm wrench fit over the rear bar, 21mm fit over the front. Car drives great with both bars, springs and koni's.

Mark

I can confirm 16 in the rear, the front measured 20.7 on mine, but they are powder coated so that could account for the 0.1 difference.

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by ksconekiller

Who is that? Someone on this board, or somewhere else?

That someone was you declaring a part illegal on grounds not specified in the rulebook without having actually measured stock vs Konis.

[solort]

Originally Posted by markw

I did the scientific method. 16mm wrench fit over the rear bar, 21mm fit over the front. Car drives great with both bars, springs and koni's.

Mark

i forgot the wrench method. Thx for doing that. I hope to build my new to me Series 10 over the summer to get it ready for next year Nationally..

Will try to pick up some tips and pointer from the large CS group at Moultrie Match Tour this weekend. Great weather and a great sticky slab of concrete. And I hear the CS group is awesome. A win/win/win...

[ksconekiller]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

That someone was you declaring a part illegal on grounds not specified in the rulebook without having actually measured stock vs Konis.

That's what I figured you meant.

"Grounds not specified in the rulebook"? Not sure what you mean by that, but the only rule a person needs to know is that the replacement strut mounting points have to be the same dimensions as the factory unit. If an aftermarket unit is different, it is technically illegal. Just so you know, I have Koni full replacements on my car. Both bolt holes on each strut are round, and I got the same camber as with the OEM struts. Everything measured the same as the factory parts. What I said earlier was that apparently some people have been able to get more camber with the Konis than with stock struts; I am not one of them. My comments simply stated that if someone had struts that had slotted holes, they would not be able to use that to gain more camber than OEM struts.

I wouldn't want to see the Konis get banned any more than the next person, but if they were slotted, something would have to be done. Fair enough ?

[solort]

Originally Posted by ksconekiller

The Koni full replacements allow too much camber up front. If you are using the full Koni struts along with the smaller camber bolts maxed out, you will have an illegal amount of front camber. I'd say over 2.5 degrees is easily possible. I personally wouldn't have a problem with someone using the replacements as long as they keep the camber where it's possible with OEM struts (1.5 or less).

If the strut dimensions are identical to the original struts and you use the legal camber bolt, the resulting negative camber attained is legal unless the FSM limits the max camber (by stating it in the FSM) with an exact #. The older Dodge Neon ACR used to be limited to -2.4 as stated in their FSM. The SRT4 ACR has no such max camber limitation but limits what you can do to get negative camber. Read the Scion or Subaru FSM and follow it and you will be legal on your alignment.

And other people around pages 141-142 had similar feelings to what you stated. Camber envy.....

I hope when I get my car sorted out that mine will be towards the high side. But it may not, and I will also have camber envy...

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by ksconekiller

That's what I figured you meant.

"Grounds not specified in the rulebook"? Not sure what you mean by that, but the only rule a person needs to know is that the replacement strut mounting points have to be the same dimensions as the factory unit. If an aftermarket unit is different, it is technically illegal. Just so you know, I have Koni full replacements on my car. Both bolt holes on each strut are round, and I got the same camber as with the OEM struts. Everything measured the same as the factory parts. What I said earlier was that apparently some people have been able to get more camber with the Konis than with stock struts; I am not one of them. My comments simply stated that if someone had struts that had slotted holes, they would not be able to use that to gain more camber than OEM struts.

I wouldn't want to see the Konis get banned any more than the next person, but if they were slotted, something would have to be done. Fair enough ?

As Clay references below, you're shifting your goalposts now.

From 13.5.A:
"The make of shock absorbers, struts, and strut housings may be substituted
providing that the number, type (e.g., tube, lever, etc.), system
of attachment and attachment points are not altered, except as noted
below."

As long as the system of attachment, attachment points, overall extended length is within 1 inch +/- and the spring load bearing surface is in the right spot, you're ok.

Originally Posted by solort

If the strut dimensions are identical to the original struts and you use the legal camber bolt, the resulting negative camber attained is legal unless the FSM limits the max camber (by stating it in the FSM) with an exact #. The older Dodge Neon ACR used to be limited to -2.4 as stated in their FSM. The SRT4 ACR has no such max camber limitation but limits what you can do to get negative camber. Read the Scion or Subaru FSM and follow it and you will be legal on your alignment.

And other people around pages 141-142 had similar feelings to what you stated. Camber envy.....

I hope when I get my car sorted out that mine will be towards the high side. But it may not, and I will also have camber envy...

There is also no requirement to stay within the FSM specs for camber when using factory authorized camber bolts.

13.8.E:

E. If offered by the manufacturer for a particular model and year, the use of
shims, special bolts, removal of material to enlarge mounting holes, and
similar methods are allowed and the resulting alignment settings are
permitted even if outside the normal specification or range of specifications
recommended by the manufacturer. If enlarging mounting holes
is specifically authorized but no material removal limits are specified,
material removal is restricted to the amount necessary to achieve the
maximum factory alignment specification.

We are fortunate enough to have a car that has factory authorized camber bolts. Between the lower pressure Konis, the TRD springs, and the camber bolts, and a smart alignment (two guys - one muscling the hub while the other torques the bolts), a range of camber exceeding the factory specification is both achievable and completely legal.

If you use legal parts, your alignment specs are not able to be protested. I'd hate to see a protest on an actual number rather than the hardware used anyways, as it's incredibly difficult to police. It'd be like the dyno testing fiasco from NASA last year.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by solort

If the strut dimensions are identical to the original struts and you use the legal camber bolt, the resulting negative camber attained is legal unless the FSM limits the max camber (by stating it in the FSM) with an exact #. The older Dodge Neon ACR used to be limited to -2.4 as stated in their FSM. The SRT4 ACR has no such max camber limitation but limits what you can do to get negative camber. Read the Scion or Subaru FSM and follow it and you will be legal on your alignment.

And other people around pages 141-142 had similar feelings to what you stated. Camber envy.....

I hope when I get my car sorted out that mine will be towards the high side. But it may not, and I will also have camber envy...

As mentioned above, the mounting holes to the knuckle are not the same as stock, which allow more camber, thus making them illegal. Nothing to do with spring perch height, shock length or pressures

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

As mentioned above, the mounting holes to the knuckle are not the same as stock, which allow more camber, thus making them illegal. Nothing to do with spring perch height, shock length or pressures

Chris, look at post 3225.

When mine come in I'll measure them, but it would be an epic fail on Koni's part to make the struts illegal for a (the?) target market.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Chris, look at post 3225.

When mine come in I'll measure them, but it would be an epic fail on Koni's part to make the struts illegal for a (the?) target market.

I read that, however other people have stated other wise. Bottom line is that the full replacements, which don't change length or perch height are getting around a degree more camber than you can achieve on the stock housing. Essentially, how is that possible if everything is exactly like OEM? And we all know its not gas pressures, cmon now. Either way I said this before and I will say it again. I personally don't give a damn, but someone in another model car might. So do it at your own risk if you are hardcore about competing a major events.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

When mine come in I'll measure them, but it would be an epic fail on Koni's part to make the struts illegal for a (the?) target market.

Looking forward to this, hopefully with pictures?

No point in continuing the argument until @ChrisV posts up the comparison of hole diameter and hole distance to strut center-line.

From there, it is pretty black and white. If they match the OEM struts then they are legal regardless of the resulting camber.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by renfield90

It's in the same location as stock. I don't particularly feel like taking mine apart for the 3rd time this year, but it is a circular hole - not slotted.

Believe me if they were slotted there would've been a pretty urgent phone call to Koni to ask wtf, as I didn't really inspect these very closely until the car was in the air sans front suspension.

So yours appear to have exact measurments to stock, what is you camber at? I understand you probably have TRD springs

Originally Posted by ksconekiller

Who is that? Someone on this board, or somewhere else?

I believe I am the one who posted about it on here, however its been talked about at the events in my area. Figured Id bring it up and stir the pot. I personally have not done any measurements and have only seen 1 car with full replacements on stock springs and stock camber bolts. It was obvious, later confirmed with conversation regarding alignment settings. So either somebody is lying about what was done to that car, koni's are not exactly OEM, or I am making shit up. Trust me I don't even have a dog in this fight as my car was replaced earlier this week. My intentions here were/are to help those who drive 1000s of miles to national events. The "buzz" about this is out there. Maybe this thread will can that or prove it to be right.