BRZ vs. Prelude Si vs. S2000. . . Initial Thoughts

[kuhlka]

This is all you need to see. Real world track with a variety of straights and corners. Both S2000 and BRZ are almost completely equal. BRZ handles corners a tad better. S2000 has better acceleration out of the corner. BRZ keeps pace for multiple laps. Considering the price difference and lower power of the 86, that's pretty damn impressive. Throw on some sticky tires and you can harass the elitist snobs all day long.
[ame]http://youtu.be/gaArJZOMCpI[/ame]

[kuhlka]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Torque (in a naturally aspirated application) is a function of displacement.

1 liter = 75lb/ft +-5, roughly

Power is work over time. Put it this way. If you give us weight, drivetrain configuration, and horsepower, we can accurately predict a 1/4 mile time. However, if you give us weight, drivetrain configuration, and torque, it could be anywhere.

Don't you mean torque + redline RPM? An engine with 10 ft lb could theoretically reach thousands of horsepower if it had a 100,000 RPM redline.

[WolfpackS2k]

Throw on some sticky tires and you can harass the elitist snobs all day long.

Now S2000 owners are elitist snobs?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Now S2000 owners are elitist snobs?

I'm most definitely an elitist snob.

[fatoni]

do the brzs handling advantages remain advantages after a decent track suspension/tire is used? i feel like most of the brzs charm comes from it being awesome right out of the box but i have a hard time believing that it has the same headroom as an s2000

[regal]

Originally Posted by Jawnathin

Normally I'm dismissive of these videos, as its almost always the driver that is the limiting factor here, but both were well driven. Thanks for sharing.

Great video. But it does show that the S2k has more useable torque and power. It just has more area under the curve because the redline is so high.

Now I've been told that headers + a good tune will put them even. I know its not stock for stock, but the FA20 had to meet much stricter emissions than the Honda. I mean Toyota/Subaru couldn't even use variable valve lift and they had to put on those stupid manifold cats.

In other words if the S2k Ap3 was released today it would be smogged down a bit as well.

So I think it is fair to compare a stock ap1 to a Twin with a header+tune, question is would it out pull an S2k? Would it match the S2k 0-60 mph? Would it trap 100 mph? Amazes me that such simple questions hasn't been answered yet. A million dynos posted on this forum but so few 1/4 mile and 0-60 times posted.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

Don't you mean torque + redline RPM? An engine with 10 ft lb could theoretically reach thousands of horsepower if it had a 100,000 RPM redline.

Not sure what he means but it is important to be definite and throw some exact numbers in. How he explains the specific torque output of, say a Porsche 911 at around 86 lb ft per litre is an interesting speculation.

It is odd that this misconception about the importance of power to weight is so widespread.

Torque is not a function of displacement other than bigger engines generally produce more torque but it is almost always non-linear and entirely unpredictable except that it is more difficult to extract the same specific torque from a larger engine. The reason for this is the fact that gasoline and air combust at a fairly fixed rate. The smaller the combustion chamber the higher compression and more advanced timing will be achieved before detonation sets in. It is, frankly laughable to imply that a F1 engine develops the same specific torque as a BRZ.

So, specific torque is dependent primarily upon combustion efficiency: which in turn is dependent upon volumetric efficiency and resistance to detonation. Indeed, the only reason to bench test any given engine on a dyno is to measure specific torque. If all you want is more torque (or power if you prefer) regardless of efficiency then of course just fit a bigger engine. That's one of many bone headed ideas that put the American car industry behind the 8 ball. You will note that specific torque and power declined precipitously in particularly American engines during the implementation of emissions regulation. Specific torque improvements have been driven entirely by fuel economy considerations or limited displacement racing formulae.

What's missing from the peak power to weight ratio is the curve. Only torque can explain that. Two cars of the same weight and same power can have radically different 1/4 mile times depending upon specific torque, whether the gearing is optimized for acceleration rather than fuel economy (the two transmissions in the BRZ rather neatly prove that point) and most importantly where in the rpm range that torque is delivered. This works for all forms of intake supply and varies according to the type of fuel used, I.e. flame front speed and octane rating.

If power to weight mattered American muscle cars should have been bog slow.

I concede I have never seen a direct to engine dynamometer in operation but my understanding is that it measures the force required to brake the engine to a constant speed, revealing the net useable torque generated by the engine at that speed. This force is plotted for the useful rpm range of the engine and bhp derived from that. If instead it measures the power consumed by the brake in order to maintain the engine at the desired rpm then that is a distinction without a difference, the object of the exercise is to derive the available force to accelerate anything attached to the engine. Bhp and torque at any given rpm are related by a constant for the simple reason that Watt wanted a constant unit of measurement.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Suberman

That's one of many bone headed ideas that put the American car industry behind the 8 ball. You will note that specific torque and power declined precipitously in particularly American engines during the implementation of emissions regulation. Specific torque improvements have been driven entirely by fuel economy considerations or limited displacement racing formulae.


If power to weight mattered American muscle cars should have been bog slow.

.

Wait a minute a 90's LT1 camaro gets better gas milage than the Toyobarus and didn't even require premium.

Also if you are talking about 60's American muscle cars not many of them were actually much faster than the twins 0 to 60 mph. A toyobaru would be neck and neck with an average 60's muscle car at the drag strip. My FRS is faster than my friends 71 mach one 0-60, 1/4 mi, and top speed.

But modern V6 muscle cars tend to get as good or better gas milage on 87 octane than the high strung DI H4 does on premium. I and many others think this car is really about 300 lbs too heavy for the engine.

[vtmike]

I don't know where you are getting your figures from but fuelly shows on average 20 mpg for the older camaros (which included some v6 models) while FRS are at 27.5.

I drive in mostly a suburban setting (lots of stop lights) in a spirited manner without trying to conserve gas at all and regularly get 28 mpg. Show me a v8 camaro that does that. Show me a v6 camaro that does that.

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[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

This is all you need to see. Real world track with a variety of straights and corners. Both S2000 and BRZ are almost completely equal. BRZ handles corners a tad better. S2000 has better acceleration out of the corner. BRZ keeps pace for multiple laps. Considering the price difference and lower power of the 86, that's pretty damn impressive. Throw on some sticky tires and you can harass the elitist snobs all day long.

Love this video. The BRZ is doing so much more with so much less. The '86 has a better chassis with better aero and much less tire than that S2k. Give it minor upgrades and that more aggressively tired S2k woulda had nothing on it.

[regal]

Originally Posted by vtmike

I don't know where you are getting your figures from but fuelly shows on average 20 mpg for the older camaros (which included some v6 models) while FRS are at 27.5.

I drive in mostly a suburban setting (lots of stop lights) in a spirited manner without trying to conserve gas at all and regularly get 28 mpg. Show me a v8 camaro that does that. Show me a v6 camaro that does that.

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My friends 6 speed LT1 gets 30 mpg on my commute and that's 87 octane. When you look at the cost of premium our cars aren't much more frugal than tall geared V8's, but I have about a dozen hills on my commute that may be the difference?

[vtmike]

Originally Posted by regal

My friends 6 speed LT1 gets 30 mpg on my commute and that's 87 octane. When you look at the cost of premium our cars aren't much more frugal than tall geared V8's, but I have about a dozen hills on my commute that may be the difference?

I'd wager your commute is mostly highway? Stop and go is really where the twins shine. Mine gets as good of mileage in that situation as my wife's civic. My commute is all stop and go.

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[regal]

Originally Posted by vtmike

I'd wager your friends commute is mostly highway? Stop and go is really where the twins shine. Mine gets as good of mileage in that situation as my wife's civic. My commute is all stop and go.

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You're right. I mainly just compare gas costs to previous cars and friends, nothing against being green but what it boils down to for me is the cost to fill up the tank and how far I go. In this area we have 10% ethanol 93, 89, and 87. The 93 is expensive so it feels like a gas hog to my wallet. I get 27 mpg, my '93 V6 Supercoupe got 26 mpg same commute (also premium.)

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

This is all you need to see. Real world track with a variety of straights and corners. Both S2000 and BRZ are almost completely equal. BRZ handles corners a tad better. S2000 has better acceleration out of the corner. BRZ keeps pace for multiple laps. Considering the price difference and lower power of the 86, that's pretty damn impressive. Throw on some sticky tires and you can harass the elitist snobs all day long.

<---- elitist snob

What is the video suppose to prove? All I see is that particular BRZ/driver is keeping up with that s2k. I really want to like the twins, but the reliability, no ice mode braking, & double wishbone suspension of the s2k keeps me from getting one. I don't even mind the lack of power. Waiting for a BRZ STi that is 2500lbs 240hp & double wishbone suspension. I'll keep dreaming.