Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

I understand/know that.

They're all high end shops that are highly regarded. I still wouldn't take an FRS/BRZ to them. Now if I had a Porsche/Audi/BMW/GT-R/Lambo/Supra, it'd be a different story.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

No, I wouldn't. However, those companys you mention build parts and components for vehicles. Sharkwerks specializes in Porsche installs and parts, but they don't do alignments. This is a race shop, that maintains race cars for professionals and amateurs. They don't sell parts. An oil change is an oil change. An alignment is an alignment. Does this distinct subaru suspension change in anyway how one would normally align a car?

fwiw, I totally understand everyone's skepticism.

As far as turning wrenches and tightening bolts. I think any competent shop can do this. While it helps to go to someone familiar with the particular car involved it does not require a Subaru specialist to torque some hardware properly. But.... I can't think of any other reason of slipping bolts and nuts besides them being insufficiently torqued. Pretty simple stuff. Highly Unlikely that a shop so familiar with working on track driven vehicles to mess that up. Mysterious.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by solidONE

As far as turning wrenches and tightening bolts. I think any competent shop can do this. While it helps to go to someone familiar with the particular car involved it does not require a Subaru specialist to torque some hardware properly. But.... I can't think of any other reason of slipping bolts and nuts besides them being insufficiently torqued. Pretty simple stuff. Highly Unlikely that a shop so familiar with working on track driven vehicles to mess that up. Mysterious.

Thanks. That's my point exactly. I can see maybe screwing up once because someone forgot to tighten the bolts, but my car has been aligned 3 times, and the other 2 guys had their cars aligned multiple times too. We've had other cars aligned by these guys and zero issues.

Mystery indeed...

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Thanks. That's my point exactly. I can see maybe screwing up once because someone forgot to tighten the bolts, but my car has been aligned 3 times, and the other 2 guys had their cars aligned multiple times too. We've had other cars aligned by these guys and zero issues.

Mystery indeed...

Are all three cars exhibiting abnormal tire wear patterns?

Is the "type" of misalignment consistent, e.g. always ends up with either excess toe-in or toe-out? Across all three cars?

Perhaps measure ride height immediately following alignment adjustments and while still up on the rack. Then measure again with car on the ground. Now, when returning for another alignment check, is the ride height the same as when last checked? Or, would ride height not have any measurable impact on alignment? I don't know.

Curious puzzle.

[hoss1990]

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[Porsche]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

No, I'm a dbag.

Are not!

Nobody listens, nobody buys into it. Ever. You won't either. Then you'll advance far enough and realize it's the truth. We're all guilty of it (myself included). This is one of the points that I don't push anymore because everyone needs to learn this for themselves.

Yep. Just like taking away their stopwatches in the beginning. They struggle trying to accept that.

You're blossoming into quite the instructor, Joe. This does not surprise me in the least bit.

You've offered excellent advice in this thread, Joe.

Your good advice warrants thanks, not a dismissive attitude from your readers, whether couched in LOLs or not.

[AZP Installs]

Also guys I've seen many a high end race shop or European car alignment shops who do not take car of folks in the same manner when they come with other marquees or non race cars. Not saying that's the case here but it's a possibility.

It seems odd that these 3 cars are the only ones with issues out of all these cars that are tracked. Only 1 common denominator on them.

Mike

[juliog]

Originally Posted by hoss1990

Wrong thread..

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Are all three cars exhibiting abnormal tire wear patterns?

Is the "type" of misalignment consistent, e.g. always ends up with either excess toe-in or toe-out? Across all three cars?

Perhaps measure ride height immediately following alignment adjustments and while still up on the rack. Then measure again with car on the ground. Now, when returning for another alignment check, is the ride height the same as when last checked? Or, would ride height not have any measurable impact on alignment? I don't know.

Curious puzzle.

Now that you mention it that reminds me. While prepping my car for chuckwalla i went and measured my alignment after installing camber bolts in the rear. With nearly a full tank of gas I measure the toe and camber. Confirmed my measurements at a sears auto. I then fabricated and installed a track pipe. Zeroed my front toe, remeasured and found that my rear toe setting were off by quite a bit from my initial measurement. I had not touched the rear setting at all, bolts were in the exact same position as I last checked. Went from slightly toe in to toe out. I wasn't paying attention to the amount of fuel I had too much at the time since I wasn't expecting such a change with less than 30lbs of weight difference between the pipe and the muffler assembly. I had also used up at least half a tank of gas since my first measurement. Thinking there must be something wrong with my measurements I took it to sears again to confirm my measurements with the track pipe. Sure enough, they also measure toe out.

Edit: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...32#post1643832

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Are all three cars exhibiting abnormal tire wear patterns?

Is the "type" of misalignment consistent, e.g. always ends up with either excess toe-in or toe-out? Across all three cars?

Perhaps measure ride height immediately following alignment adjustments and while still up on the rack. Then measure again with car on the ground. Now, when returning for another alignment check, is the ride height the same as when last checked? Or, would ride height not have any measurable impact on alignment? I don't know.

Curious puzzle.

Honestly, I don't know if it's excess toe in or out, but it is across all 3 cars. No issues with abnormal tire wear other than the outer edges getting shredded because we are maxed out on negative camber. No change in ride height. The shop always uses a ballast in the driver seat that is equivalent to the driver weight to align with the car 'weighted'

Originally Posted by Porsche

Are not!


Yep. Just like taking away their stopwatches in the beginning. They struggle trying to accept that.

You're blossoming into quite the instructor, Joe. This does not surprise me in the least bit.

You've offered excellent advice in this thread, Joe.

Your good advice warrants thanks, not a dismissive attitude from your readers, whether couched in LOLs or not.

LOL. Thanks. You are too kind.

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Also guys I've seen many a high end race shop or European car alignment shops who do not take car of folks in the same manner when they come with other marquees or non race cars. Not saying that's the case here but it's a possibility.

It seems odd that these 3 cars are the only ones with issues out of all these cars that are tracked. Only 1 common denominator on them.

Mike

We all have an excellent relationship with the shop. This isn't a fancy pants high brow shop. It is located in the middle of nowhere on an abandoned nike missile base (seriously) and they rely solely on referrals for business. All the local racers have them store, ship, modify, and maintain their cars with them because they trust them. I agree it's a mystery.

Originally Posted by solidONE

Now that you mention it that reminds me. While prepping my car for chuckwalla i went and measured my alignment after installing camber bolts in the rear. With nearly a full tank of gas I measure the toe and camber. Confirmed my measurements at a sears auto. I then fabricated and installed a track pipe. Zeroed my front toe, remeasured and found that my rear toe setting were off by quite a bit from my initial measurement. I had not touched the rear setting at all, bolts were in the exact same position as I last checked. Went from slightly toe in to toe out. I wasn't paying attention to the amount of fuel I had too much at the time since I wasn't expecting such a change with less than 30lbs of weight difference between the pipe and the muffler assembly. I had also used up at least half a tank of gas since my first measurement. Thinking there must be something wrong with my measurements I took it to sears again to confirm my measurements with the track pipe. Sure enough, they also measure toe out.

Edit: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...32#post1643832

The plot thickens.....
This is probably why SPL makes this part:
Scion FR-S & Subaru BRZ Eccentric Lockout Kit


The stock eccentric bolts provided by Scion/Subaru for small camber/toe adjustments tend to slip under high cornering loads, causing changes to the rear alignment. Our SPL eccentric lockout kit eliminates the stock eccentric bolts to keep your rear toe alignment exactly where you set it. You must have adjustable control arms in order to adjust toe after eliminating the stock eccentric bolts.


SPL Eccentric Lockout Kit Features:

· Lockout plates CNC machined from lightweight T6061 aluminum
· Supplied with CAD plated grade 10.9 hardware and distorted thread locknuts
· Compatible with all brands of adjustable toe arms

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Honestly, I don't know if it's excess toe in or out, but it is across all 3 cars. No issues with abnormal tire wear other than the outer edges getting shredded because we are maxed out on negative camber. No change in ride height. The shop always uses a ballast in the driver seat that is equivalent to the driver weight to align with the car 'weighted'



LOL. Thanks. You are too kind.



We all have an excellent relationship with the shop. This isn't a fancy pants high brow shop. It is located in the middle of nowhere on an abandoned nike missile base (seriously) and they rely solely on referrals for business. All the local racers have them store, ship, modify, and maintain their cars with them because they trust them. I agree it's a mystery.



The plot thickens.....
This is probably why SPL makes this part:
Scion FR-S & Subaru BRZ Eccentric Lockout Kit


The stock eccentric bolts provided by Scion/Subaru for small camber/toe adjustments tend to slip under high cornering loads, causing changes to the rear alignment. Our SPL eccentric lockout kit eliminates the stock eccentric bolts to keep your rear toe alignment exactly where you set it. You must have adjustable control arms in order to adjust toe after eliminating the stock eccentric bolts.


SPL Eccentric Lockout Kit Features:

· Lockout plates CNC machined from lightweight T6061 aluminum
· Supplied with CAD plated grade 10.9 hardware and distorted thread locknuts
· Compatible with all brands of adjustable toe arms

I don't think it's due to toe bolt slippage. Evidence I gathered point more to the toe change due to ride height. If it was slipping I doubt I would have gotten the same change on both sides equally. Possible, but unlikely. And if it was due to slippage the toe may become lopsided if one side slipped first before the other. Also, if that happened car will not be driving straight.

[juliog]

I got the SPL Eccentric lockout kit by recommendation of @Corner3garage, no problems so far after 5 track days and some canyons..

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by juliog

I got the SPL Eccentric lockout kit by recommendation of @Corner3garage, no problems so far after 5 track days and some canyons..

Why did you choose to get the lockout kit? Why did corner3garage recommend it?

[fooddude]

Originally Posted by hoss1990

Attachment 76194

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[ame]http://youtu.be/oaGGFLHRt6c[/ame]