How to achieve -2.0 front Camber with stock suspension (if possible)?

[solidONE]

So I went ahead and manually measured my front and rear toe without ballast and with track pipe, less than half a tank of gas and spare tire still in the trunk. Both the front and rear toe were exactly at zero. The sears readout read slightly beyond .05* toe out on either side. And front toe went from .01* toe out with 150lbs ballast to .01* toe in without ballast. So I guess at least the front toe was pretty spot on.

So removing the factory muffler and 30ish lbs aft the rear axle does have quite an effect on the rear alignment. Went from 1/8" total toe in with the stock muffler and little over half a tank of gas to 0 toe with track pipe and little less than half a tank of gas.

I guess the Sears laser alignment was kinda accurate, but not exact. :/

Oh and the drawback of having lopsided camber is that while going in a straight line you have more traction on the side that has less camber. I found this out when I warmed up my tires to take some logs. The rear end would pull to the right where I was running more camber.

[SLICVIC]

ok i got tired of reading so not sure if this has been said already , but yeah i have heard of camber bolts for the rear that go in the subframe hole of the LCA. If you use some thin camber bolts installed properly im pretty sure you can get -2. If not try this method

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU5lJtJ3lNA"]slotting bc coils on Protege5 - YouTube[/ame]


a combination of maxed out camber plates + camber bolts + the slotting method done above im around -11 degrees of camber up front. Mcpherson strut type suspensions are pretty easy to get a good amount of camber for cheap , Good luck

[Wepeel]

Originally Posted by solidONE

So I went ahead and manually measured my front and rear toe without ballast and with track pipe, less than half a tank of gas and spare tire still in the trunk. Both the front and rear toe were exactly at zero. The sears readout read slightly beyond .05* toe out on either side. And front toe went from .01* toe out with 150lbs ballast to .01* toe in without ballast. So I guess at least the front toe was pretty spot on.

So removing the factory muffler and 30ish lbs aft the rear axle does have quite an effect on the rear alignment. Went from 1/8" total toe in with the stock muffler and little over half a tank of gas to 0 toe with track pipe and little less than half a tank of gas.

I guess the Sears laser alignment was kinda accurate, but not exact. :/

Oh and the drawback of having lopsided camber is that while going in a straight line you have more traction on the side that has less camber. I found this out when I warmed up my tires to take some logs. The rear end would pull to the right where I was running more camber.

Wow. Really strange considering most people carry things... in the trunk. There must be a huge variance between the car with full tank, spare, and muffler in vs. 1/4 tank, no spare/tools, and track pipe.

The net difference of 25 lbs due to the track pipe should only result in a ride height change of 0.1"... if that. That means rear toe changes 1/8" (3mm) per 0.1" of ride height...

If you happen to still have the measuring rig up try this: measure toe with spare in, then remove spare, and measure again. That should be about the same weight differential as the track pipe vs. muffler.

What are your ride heights at?

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

Wow. Really strange considering most people carry things... in the trunk. There must be a huge variance between the car with full tank, spare, and muffler in vs. 1/4 tank, no spare/tools, and track pipe.

The net difference of 25 lbs due to the track pipe should only result in a ride height change of 0.1"... if that. That means rear toe changes 1/8" (3mm) per 0.1" of ride height...

If you happen to still have the measuring rig up try this: measure toe with spare in, then remove spare, and measure again. That should be about the same weight differential as the track pipe vs. muffler.

What are your ride heights at?

I will measure rear height and toe as it sits now, then throw the muffler back on and measure again. I have the factory springs on currently.


Rear Measurements:

w/track pipe
Height: LR 26 9/16" RR 27" Toe: 1/16" out

w/stock muffler installed without jacking up car:
Height: LR 26 1/2" RR 26 15/16" Toe: 1/16" out

w/stock muffler after slaloming down the block and back:
Height: LR 26 5/8" RR 26 7/8" Toe: 1/16" out

W...T...F...???
I've used up maybe about 2 gallons of gas since I last measured at 0 toe this afternoon. So about -12lbs. lighter in the tank. I used 2 1.5"x5.5"x24" wood blocks centered on the ground, pressed against the wheels to measure toe, and used the same measuring tape instead of 2 separate ones to avoid variation between 2 different measuring tapes. I measured back and forth at least 4-5 times each time to confirm measurements. Each time the toe came out to be 1/16" out. The height difference probably has to do with stiction in the suspension, so I'm not worried about that. Still this make 0 sense, unless there is something seriously wrong with the way I'm measuring toe. That still doesn't explain why it went from toe in to toe out when I went to get measured at sears the 2 seperate times. Nothing was changed except the front toe and track pipe, and maybe fuel levels.

[ML]

I'm just going to throw my setup in here, haven't read the ENTIRE thread. But I'm running Whiteline 16mm camber bolts in the top, and slotted the bottom holes in the front. In the rear I'm running the whiteline UCA bushings. I'm getting -3 front, and -2 rear confirmed on an alignment machine.

[feldy]

With the whiteline camber bolts I had -2.5 degrees of camber with stock suppension. The key is when installing the bolt not just to turn it to go negetive but also push the top of the rotor towards the car. There's a lot of slop in there so more negetive camber can be had. Most people forgot to do that and get less camber. I now have the hvt camber plates set to max neg and the oem crash bolts. I have -3.5 degrees of camber up front.

[Wepeel]

Originally Posted by solidONE

I will measure rear height and toe as it sits now, then throw the muffler back on and measure again. I have the factory springs on currently.


Rear Measurements:

w/track pipe
Height: LR 26 9/16" RR 27" Toe: 1/16" out

w/stock muffler installed without jacking up car:
Height: LR 26 1/2" RR 26 15/16" Toe: 1/16" out

w/stock muffler after slaloming down the block and back:
Height: LR 26 5/8" RR 26 7/8" Toe: 1/16" out

W...T...F...???
I've used up maybe about 2 gallons of gas since I last measured at 0 toe this afternoon. So about -12lbs. lighter in the tank. I used 2 1.5"x5.5"x24" wood blocks centered on the ground, pressed against the wheels to measure toe, and used the same measuring tape instead of 2 separate ones to avoid variation between 2 different measuring tapes. I measured back and forth at least 4-5 times each time to confirm measurements. Each time the toe came out to be 1/16" out. The height difference probably has to do with stiction in the suspension, so I'm not worried about that. Still this make 0 sense, unless there is something seriously wrong with the way I'm measuring toe. That still doesn't explain why it went from toe in to toe out when I went to get measured at sears the 2 seperate times. Nothing was changed except the front toe and track pipe, and maybe fuel levels.

That seems like more reasonable numbers. Minimal ride height change and almost no toe change - it would be crazy if the toe changed 1/8 due to a difference of 25 lbs. The outside rear will compress a lot in a turn, 1-2", and if it toe'd out the rate you initially thought the car would be very difficult to drive.

To be clear - the first times you thought you got toe out with a muffler delete was based on the sears measurements?

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

That seems like more reasonable numbers. Minimal ride height change and almost no toe change - it would be crazy if the toe changed 1/8 due to a difference of 25 lbs. The outside rear will compress a lot in a turn, 1-2", and if it toe'd out the rate you initially thought the car would be very difficult to drive.

To be clear - the first times you thought you got toe out with a muffler delete was based on the sears measurements?

Yes, and according to what I measured last night I do indeed have toe out currently even after reinstalling the factory exhaust.

I initially measured 1/8" toe in, then 0, then I measured 1/16" toe out last night. Measured the exact same way each time. The first sears alignment showed amount of toe in that concurs with my 1/8" toe in measurement. The second time showed -0.06* toe out which matches the 1/16" toe out I measured last night. No alignment changes were done to the rear end between the different times. Only thing I did was zero the front toe, the rest was just moving weight of fuel, muffler and myself on and off of the car.

I will fill up my gas tank and measure again if it doesn't rain tonight and see if I get some of the toe in back.

[dirtymax]

Originally Posted by feldy

With the whiteline camber bolts I had -2.5 degrees of camber with stock suppension. The key is when installing the bolt not just to turn it to go negetive but also push the top of the rotor towards the car. There's a lot of slop in there so more negetive camber can be had. Most people forgot to do that and get less camber. I now have the hvt camber plates set to max neg and the oem crash bolts. I have -3.5 degrees of camber up front.

I'll have to try that. I would like to get -2.5 in the front


FYI to the OP, with one inch drop the rear ended up at -2.0 and with camber bolts the front is maxed at -1.5.

[feldy]

Originally Posted by dirtymax

I'll have to try that. I would like to get -2.5 in the front


FYI to the OP, with one inch drop the rear ended up at -2.0 and with camber bolts the front is maxed at -1.5.

This is the same with any bolt.

[solidONE]

Okay filled up my tank 5 miles from my home and took new measurements.

w/stock muffler, spare/jack/full gas tank:
Height: LR 26 15/32" RR 26 13/16" Toe: 1/8" in

Originally Posted by Previous measurements

w/track pipe
Height: LR 26 9/16" RR 27" Toe: 1/16" out

w/stock muffler installed without jacking up car:
Height: LR 26 1/2" RR 26 15/16" Toe: 1/16" out

w/stock muffler after slaloming down the block and back:
Height: LR 26 5/8" RR 26 7/8" Toe: 1/16" out

To be fair, My measuring tape only goes down to 16ths so the 15/32" was because the edge of the fender well was right smack dab in between the 1/2" mark and the next line. And since my measuring tape only measure to the 16ths, so is the accuracy of my measurements.

I hope this info will be found useful to the class. Also hope someone will do similar to confirm or disprove my measurements.

[mike156]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Oh and the drawback of having lopsided camber is that while going in a straight line you have more traction on the side that has less camber. I found this out when I warmed up my tires to take some logs. The rear end would pull to the right where I was running more camber.

The car likely pulled to the right because the crown in the road.

If the alignment is uneven left to right, reposition the subframe as there is some slop available to force it one direction or the other. Unless the car has had a heavy impact, repositioning the subframe will likely fix the issue.

There is no way toe is changing as dramaticaly as you think. That's the entire point of a multi-link suspension, minimize and control angle changes. It's error in your measurements/method.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by mike156

The car likely pulled to the right because the crown in the road.

If the alignment is uneven left to right, reposition the subframe as there is some slop available to force it one direction or the other. Unless the car has had a heavy impact, repositioning the subframe will likely fix the issue.

There is no way toe is changing as dramaticaly as you think. That's the entire point of a multi-link suspension, minimize and control angle changes. It's error in your measurements/method.

Can you do the same on your own car to confirm? Leave a quarter of a tank of gas and remove the muffler to measure, then fill up your tank and replace the muffler and measure again.

Also, as I said in earlier posts, I left the camber uneven purposely to retain the maximum amount of camber I gained from bolts. And the road I was taking logs on was very flat.

[solidONE]

@mike156 Show me some data that supports what you are saying instead of stating things based in assumptions, and I will post data that concur with what I've been saying in this thread. 'Cause I'd really like to figure out what's going on.