Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Suspension works as a system between dampers, springs, tires, inflation, valving, settings, bump stops, roll bars, bushings, etc. You cannot just look at the spring rate of one setup and compare it directly to a completely different setup. You should look at the total product. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Directing this at @drift86 amirite?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Suspension works as a system between dampers, springs, tires, inflation, valving, settings, bump stops, roll bars, bushings, etc. You cannot just look at the spring rate of one setup and compare it directly to a completely different setup. You should look at the total product. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Eh, here's my armchair quarterbacking based on my past experience.

It'd be foolish to argue that they don't interplay, that two cars with identical spring rates but different everything else would handle completely differently from each other. But as posted elsewhere, spring rates are kind of the roughest knob to turn in relation to handling balance.

Yeah, the 400lb/in springs on Tarmac 2's don't necessarily handle the same as 7kg/mm (~390lbs/in) on Fortune Auto's all else being equal. But the bias should be close, you would follow similar paths to optimizing grip given either starting point. That might be the key, spring rates are a starting point. Damping has an optimum value based on all the other factors so it really isn't a tuning tool unless you're removing grip to get balance, which is slowing the car down, I think this also applies to bump stops. Tires are generally chosen based on application so once you have your head in that space the differences are usually negligible unless your ruleset is wide open like a DD/Track car which will have a guy on stock 7" chasing down a guy with 18x9's, but in that scenario outright speed probably isn't the top requirement.

From what I understand it'd be pretty foolish to choose spring rates and damping based on the cheap parts that are easily changeable like roll bars and alignment.

The question is doubly tricky because how 'stiff' the suspension is is not a linear relationship, 300 lb springs f/r will handle differently than 600 lb springs f/r even though the 'balance' is the 'same'.

It's interesting I've been watching spring rates on this platform and it seems like you can make anything work with some effort, lots of different philosophies, equal rate springs f/r seem to be rather popular and some are evem recommending stiffer fronts (I remember CSG once suggested 7k/6k for autox vs. 10k/12k for track). Given how the car pushes completely stock I'm also surprised so many are selling equal rates front and rear.

So far I'd say alignment is more important than spring rates when it comes to balance, I cranked the front up to >-3.2 degrees and left the rear at stock <-1.5 degrees and I had a drift machine I couldn't hang onto, move the front camber down to <-2.7 degrees and I've got understeer rivaling an economy car.

Huh, I seemed to have convinced myself to your point but I'd be asking about alignment first and then spring rates second, the rest of the variables should be relatively adjustable to get the final desired result and things like tires and bushings can be compensated for without a ton of effort.

Oh and don't forget style and skill



For clarity I don't have first hand experience in a road racing/autox/track environment, but hopefully that'll change over the coming months.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by LOLS2K

This is what my P.mu CR pads look like after one track day. Sorry bout the poor pictures:

Looks like you used a bit of ABS there

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by drift86

I've got a question around spring rates (apologies if it has been asked before).

The stock rates are something like 2.3KG front and 3.3KG rear, making the rear about 50% stiffer than the front.

It seems most aftermarket coilovers are running the same rate front and rear, or very similar rates. eg. 6kg/6kg, 8kg/9kg, 8kg/7kg. Its certainly not 50% heavier on the rears like the stocks.

Doesn't this change the balance of the car towards much more understeer?

Or are you gaining a lot more front grip with the coilovers via the other improvements (greater camber etc) and negating this?

Don't forget what the sway bars contribute to the net spring rate at the wheels

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

I've read a lot of people complain that the BP20s don't last and seem to wear faster the farther you get into them. I'm planning to get the RR Racing sport front kit but I don't plan to run BP20 pads.

RR Racing claims stock bias is retained with the front kit but recommends running their rear kit to move bias to the rear vs OEM. I don't plan to get the rear kit so with that in mind, it looks like I may want to consider running a more aggressive pad in the rear? I was thinking of trying something like Carbotech XP8 in the front and XP10 in the rear, would this be advised or should I use similar compound front and rear? Note that I don't have any aero at all, not even a spoiler.

That's a completely contradictory statement there.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Looks like you used a bit of ABS there

I needs practice.
Suggestions? More practice?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by LOLS2K

I needs practice.
Suggestions? More practice?

Pedal dance, and more practice.

Practice makes better. Only Senna is perfect.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Pedal dance, and more practice.

Practice makes better. Only Senna is perfect.

I pedal danced for sure, but I can see where I was getting carried away with the super late braking, initial d style. I do love exploring the/my limits. As always, thanks for everything you do here.

"Practice makes better. Only Senna is perfect." Thanks, I think I found my sig quote.

btw, pads should hold up fine for future use, right (I've done it before on less damage)?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by LOLS2K

I pedal danced for sure, but I can see where I was getting carried away with the super late braking, initial d style. I do love exploring the/my limits. As always, thanks for everything you do here.

"Practice makes better. Only Senna is perfect." Thanks, I think I found my sig quote.

btw, pads should hold up fine for future use, right (I've done it before on less damage)?

Pads have tons of life left. Carry on!

Late braking means slower corner entry speed

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

That's a completely contradictory statement there.

Not sure how it's contradictory but I'm no expert and may not be understanding the correct terminology. Maybe you can help me understand?

Basically, it's my understanding that RR Racing front brake kits have similar brake torque to the stock front brake system which would retain oem brake bias but their rear brake kits have increased brake torque over stock which I understand would move brake bias to the rear. RR Racing says that the car benefits from increased rear bias so instead of getting the rear kit, I was wondering if it is a good idea to run a more aggressive pad in the rear which should have the same effect.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Not sure how it's contradictory but I'm no expert and may not be understanding the correct terminology. Maybe you can help me understand?

Basically, it's my understanding that RR Racing front brake kits have similar brake torque to the stock front brake system which would retain oem brake bias but their rear brake kits have increased brake torque over stock which I understand would move brake bias to the rear. RR Racing says that the car benefits from increased rear bias so instead of getting the rear kit, I was wondering if it is a good idea to run a more aggressive pad in the rear which should have the same effect.

Do the pedal dance, and in a safe place, brake while cornering, and see what happens.

Now, would you want MORE rear brake bias, given that experience?

The stock bias is designed to optimize braking distance, while within the range of the EBD. Moving that bias will take you out of the EBD's range, and a static rear bias with dynamic rear grip (wing) just doesn't mix well, imo.

[drift86]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

So far I'd say alignment is more important than spring rates when it comes to balance, I cranked the front up to >-3.2 degrees and left the rear at stock <-1.5 degrees and I had a drift machine I couldn't hang onto, move the front camber down to <-2.7 degrees and I've got understeer rivaling an economy car.

Thanks. That's a very valuable insight there.

[Fricke]

Any body here rocking the jdm gas pedal?
I really would want one too make the hel toe some more placenta.
So is it worth it and did it do the job better?

I have had several knee surgery and it's a pain in the as too heel to whit the oem pedal, so everything that that doesn't mean I have to twist around the knee more is a bonus

[ScionOfHorus]

I have the Cusco pedal. 100% worth it. Makes rev match down shifts so much easier.

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