namess vs AP crossover pipe?

[thebear21]

so i cant decide between the two. just wanted some opinions. so let the wheels spin. thanks!

[Tainen]

Does the AP one have a cat in it? I know the nameless one does, a nice brand name 200 cell high flow cat.

I guess it depends on if you want a cat in it or not (although I know Nameless can make one without a cat in it for cheaper if you call em up). I also know the nameless one is single piece not two piece. I have no experience/knowledge of the AP one, just speaking to the nameless side since I own one.

[vividracing]

We were in talks about adding a cat to the mix. But had to put that on hold till the exhaust thread was done.

I know a lot of people have to deal with cat-less and the police. I am in the same boat with my personal car.
I will revisit this idea with AP and see what they can do.

[track_warrior]

Originally Posted by vividracing

We were in talks about adding a cat to the mix. But had to put that on hold till the exhaust thread was done.

I know a lot of people have to deal with cat-less and the police. I am in the same boat with my personal car.
I will revisit this idea with AP and see what they can do.

What about a resonated version!!

[vividracing]

Originally Posted by pcasso87

What about a resonated version!!

What do you mean? AP has them already installed.

The problem with California is they want everything CARB approved and that cost big money. Not really thinking anyone here is going to jump into that arena. So the simple truth is that having a catted system will only save you from a tow in California. Not a ticket. The best course is to run a catback, cross-over pipe and be done. If you are worried about it. Then make sure you have factory info on where the cat is placed. Offer it to the CHP/Police. But do not demand anything or be rude. Its a sliding scale. Your happy, They are happy, Everyone is happy. Your rude, They are rude and everyone is not happy. I had a fake cat welded up in my car to help with roadside checks.
A lot also depends on the area you live and how you drive as well.
My Subaru screams pull me over. But since I drive it mellow I have not been pulled over. But then again I do not drive it everyday.

It should be interesting when CHP or locals go to look for a cat on a stock FR-
S / BRZ, Since they are taught to look under the car and not at the header.

[track_warrior]

Originally Posted by vividracing

What do you mean? AP has them already installed.

The problem with California is they want everything CARB approved and that cost big money. Not really thinking anyone here is going to jump into that arena. So the simple truth is that having a catted system will only save you from a tow in California. Not a ticket. The best course is to run a catback, cross-over pipe and be done. If you are worried about it. Then make sure you have factory info on where the cat is placed. Offer it to the CHP/Police. But do not demand anything or be rude. Its a sliding scale. Your happy, They are happy, Everyone is happy. Your rude, They are rude and everyone is not happy. I had a fake cat welded up in my car to help with roadside checks.
A lot also depends on the area you live and how you drive as well.
My Subaru screams pull me over. But since I drive it mellow I have not been pulled over. But then again I do not drive it everyday.

It should be interesting when CHP or locals go to look for a cat on a stock FR-
S / BRZ, Since they are taught to look under the car and not at the header.

I live in tx i can get away without cats . So if i ordered the catback the only thing i need to have full exhaust is the x over pipe and the headers? The x over pipe has a resonator?

[vividracing]

You can order just the cross pipe and the catback. Its all made to fit.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by vividracing

We were in talks about adding a cat to the mix. But had to put that on hold till the exhaust thread was done.

I know a lot of people have to deal with cat-less and the police. I am in the same boat with my personal car.
I will revisit this idea with AP and see what they can do.

People really need to use the full names for you two APs....

[Jason@Nameless]

I'd just buy the one from the company who made the parts first, not the knockoff company who copied them. And really, Agency Power did copy our design. Almost directly aside from a slip fit that only functions to ease in installation even though removal of the factory overpipe requires loosening of the motor mount to get the factory overpipe out of the car in the first place. We were the first company to replace the overpipe and downpipe as a singular unit instead of copying the Japanese market jogged overpipe.

This happens regularly, there are hundreds of threads of crappy knock offs failing and leaving customers stranded on the side of the road. I wouldn't trust those products any further than I could throw them.

And while we're at it, lets do a comparison of weld quality and some discussion of overseas manufacturing methodology vs. hand built American quality. The photos shown of the AP parts above appear to be MIG welded polished Chinese stainless. I'm sure the final design will be Auto-TIG welded. Basically that is a method that is like a sewing machine. The parts are MIG tacked together and then run through a machine that aggressively pulses the amperage and feeds material. This results in welds that while they look pretty, have craters in every single convolution (the dimes in the stack of dimes on a weld). This requires the operator of the machine to rotate the part through the Auto-TIG at a very constant speed. If they go too fast, those craters in each of the convolutions aren't covered by the next overlapping weld. These are all stress risers for weld failure. The last overseas part we looked at had over 10 of these in a single downpipe design.

Now lets look at one of our prototypes to show weld quality (more welds than you would find in a production unit, but lots of welds to view):



Then there's material considerations: What ASTM certifications does the tubing used carry? Usually none. I've done spectrometer testing of overseas exhaust materials and when they do meet the material specification (rare), they are almost always within .0x% of the required alloy ranges. We use American milled Rathgibson tubing, bent right here in the USA which is certified to ASTM specifications ensuring that each batch has been tested to meet the material type that we are purchasing. We also reject parts regularly when they don't fit our fixtures during the weld process. We don't compromise our standards to try to get more use out of bad parts. They simply go in the scrap pile.

When we do make mistakes (and we do - we're not perfect), we take the utmost care of our customers. We had an early run of our WRX & STi axleback exhausts for the 2011 Sedan that had a handful of hanger failures. Not only does our production process allow us to make rapid changes to our designs as the parts come off our production line, but it also ensures that we don't have a warehouse full of parts requiring redesign.

We're an honest company, our parts are made in the USA by skilled craftsmen who have been welding for more years than Agency Power has been open. We provide our customers with a direct link to the manufacturer, because we are the manufacturer. We listen to our customers and involve them in the design process every step of the way.

If that's not enough for you, we also build winning race cars. Our suspension, exhaust and chassis components have been on the Rally America Group 5 Podium for the last three Rally America events and have won two of the last three Group 5 first place finishes. Our Group 5 (Rear Wheel Drive) cars have beat the all but 4 of the Open and SuperProduction AWD class in two of the last three Rally America National events.

Our systems on those cars (4130 Control Arms, 7075 Aluminum Skidplates & Full Exhaust) have had zero failures in over 100 Rally America stages. Hundreds of jumps and hard landings and ZERO control arm or skidplate failures. While the other teams scramble to swap control arms at most of the service intervals, ours just get chunks of granite knocked off of them and they're ready to go again. And they have seen some massive abuse. One car saw 14 jumps in a single stage:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo5r91hA0s8"]Summit Rally Team New England Forest Rally 2012 - YouTube[/ame]

We make fine parts, you should choose them. I'll put our quality and designs up against any competitor in any market. Period.

Jason

[vividracing]

Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless

I'd just buy the one from the company who made the parts first, not the knockoff company who copied them. And really, Agency Power did copy our design. Almost directly aside from a slip fit that only functions to ease in installation even though removal of the factory overpipe requires loosening of the motor mount to get the factory overpipe out of the car in the first place. We were the first company to replace the overpipe and downpipe as a singular unit instead of copying the Japanese market jogged overpipe.

This happens regularly, there are hundreds of threads of crappy knock offs failing and leaving customers stranded on the side of the road. I wouldn't trust those products any further than I could throw them.

And while we're at it, lets do a comparison of weld quality and some discussion of overseas manufacturing methodology vs. hand built American quality. The photos shown of the AP parts above appear to be MIG welded polished Chinese stainless. I'm sure the final design will be Auto-TIG welded. Basically that is a method that is like a sewing machine. The parts are MIG tacked together and then run through a machine that aggressively pulses the amperage and feeds material. This results in welds that while they look pretty, have craters in every single convolution (the dimes in the stack of dimes on a weld). This requires the operator of the machine to rotate the part through the Auto-TIG at a very constant speed. If they go too fast, those craters in each of the convolutions aren't covered by the next overlapping weld. These are all stress risers for weld failure. The last overseas part we looked at had over 10 of these in a single downpipe design.

Now lets look at one of our prototypes to show weld quality (more welds than you would find in a production unit, but lots of welds to view):



Then there's material considerations: What ASTM certifications does the tubing used carry? Usually none. I've done spectrometer testing of overseas exhaust materials and when they do meet the material specification (rare), they are almost always within .0x% of the required alloy ranges. We use American milled Rathgibson tubing, bent right here in the USA which is certified to ASTM specifications ensuring that each batch has been tested to meet the material type that we are purchasing. We also reject parts regularly when they don't fit our fixtures during the weld process. We don't compromise our standards to try to get more use out of bad parts. They simply go in the scrap pile.

When we do make mistakes (and we do - we're not perfect), we take the utmost care of our customers. We had an early run of our WRX & STi axleback exhausts for the 2011 Sedan that had a handful of hanger failures. Not only does our production process allow us to make rapid changes to our designs as the parts come off our production line, but it also ensures that we don't have a warehouse full of parts requiring redesign.

We're an honest company, our parts are made in the USA by skilled craftsmen who have been welding for more years than Agency Power has been open. We provide our customers with a direct link to the manufacturer, because we are the manufacturer. We listen to our customers and involve them in the design process every step of the way.

If that's not enough for you, we also build winning race cars. Our suspension, exhaust and chassis components have been on the Rally America Group 5 Podium for the last three Rally America events and have won two of the last three Group 5 first place finishes. Our Group 5 (Rear Wheel Drive) cars have beat the all but 4 of the Open and SuperProduction AWD class in two of the last three Rally America National events.

Our systems on those cars (4130 Control Arms, 7075 Aluminum Skidplates & Full Exhaust) have had zero failures in over 100 Rally America stages. And they have seen some massive abuse.

We make fine parts, you should choose them. I'll put our quality and designs up against any competitor in any market. Period.

Jason

Wow, The company that shall remain nameless has now dropped the bar and gone to personal attacks. Course this is not the 1st time you have made personal attacks now is it Jason?
Really poor taste again on your part. If your product is good. Maybe put your product in front of your words. Lets see some dyno sheets. I'm game buddy we did!

Everyone has parts failures. I'm not going to take the time to dig yours up. Post up some of your product sheets. Let the numbers speak.

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by vividracing

Wow, The company that shall remain nameless has now dropped the bar and gone to personal attacks. Course this is not the 1st time you have made personal attacks now is it Jason?
Really poor taste again on your part. If your product is good. Maybe put your product in front of your words. Lets see some dyno sheets. I'm game buddy we did!

Everyone has parts failures. I'm not going to take the time to dig yours up. Post up some of your product sheets. Let the numbers speak.

Nameless had dynos of individual parts and runs months ago, all are posted for everyone to see on the forums.

[vividracing]

Originally Posted by Tainen

Nameless had dynos of individual parts and runs months ago, all are posted for everyone to see on the forums.

Sweet.. Didn't even know. Where is a link?

[Tainen]

Sure, I'll dig a few up, and post/edit as I find them:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7046

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10011

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7038

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9179

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7049

[Jason@Nameless]

Originally Posted by vividracing

Wow, The company that shall remain nameless has now dropped the bar and gone to personal attacks. Course this is not the 1st time you have made personal attacks now is it Jason?
Really poor taste again on your part. If your product is good. Maybe put your product in front of your words. Lets see some dyno sheets. I'm game buddy we did!

Everyone has parts failures. I'm not going to take the time to dig yours up. Post up some of your product sheets. Let the numbers speak.

That's right, I'll call it like I see it. I'd rather speak up for our quality and call you out on yours. Our dyno sheets are all over the forum. And the ONE failure our products have seen was updated after 10 total units were sold, I can post photos of the new design after being rear ended in three different wrecks. Our exhaust was intact after every collision. No weld failures. In one instance, the factory hangers were torn off the bottom of the car and our exhaust hangers remained intact.

Well, guess what, we won't let your methods change the way that we do business or impact the level of detail we share with our customers.

Let our customers decide. Show some close ups of those welds in your system. Are they MIG welded? If they're TIG welded in the full production system does your manufacturer use an Auto-TIG? I'm sorry for telling your perspective customers what to look for when it comes to quality welds. I know that will impact your sales and I'm not shy to speak up.

These aren't personal attacks. These are FACTS about your manufacturing methodology and what impact that has on the level of quality and R&D that comes to the aftermarket. I'll let your own customers chime in with their experiences with your company personally. I have no personal experience from which to form personal attacks. I do have great amounts of data across the other forums where we are vendors to call you out on your poor quality (and I realize it's not your quality, it's your manufacturers quality). Either way, when you have 1000 pieces of shelf stock in your warehouse and something comes up that shows failure, tell me you won't sell the remaining units.

I'd be ashamed if I didn't give our perspective customers a litmus test by which to compare two apparently similar systems. But the fact is, they're similar in appearance only. Except for the fact that we don't polish our parts - because we like to leave the marks of legitimacy on every system we sell:



I'll defend our product to the end.

Jason