P0021 and P00C

[Kiske]

Hoping for a little guidance before jumping into it this weekend.

Backstory er... [rant]
Put the 2013 up for sale last month. Following the first test drive with a potential customer I popped the dreaded P0018 code. I did the basic diagnosis myself. (Including watching VVT target angles, Swapping VVT cam and OVC, oil level check and flush...)

After burning daylight I gave in a took her to the local dealership. Since I didn't have the time to mess with her myself (First mistake.) I explain what I did diagnosis wise and let their tech have a go at it so long as the problem is fixed. Day later they call back and want to do a cam sprocket, which is about what I expected having followed the [02-132-12] flow chart. Asked if they needed to do the ecu and was responded with "nah." A week later they then did the ecu... $2700 and change. Oh well she can now be sold in good faith to the next future ft86member. I pay for the repair over the phone and pick her up after hours that weekend. (2nd mistake.) Get back to selling the car and worry about my other projects... or so I thought.

I make it 3 blocks down the road before the car sputters and stalls. I pop the hood and immediately notice the MAF is unplugged and dangling above the belt with some serious wear on the loom. Plug her back in and the car fires right up (whew.) I check the codes and surprise surprise I have 8 stored codes from Lean condition to bad oxygen sensors, not to mention the same p0018 I took it in for. After looking over the engine bay once more for anything unplugged I limped her back to the dealer, with a every passive aggressive note in the key drop box. (3rd and 4th? mistakes.)

Next day they call stating the o2 sensors were now magically bad and everything was all good but the car had unusually high oil pressure. After a long conversation with the manage they sold me the oxygen sensors at cost with no labor to install them. "AS LONG AS THE CAR IS FIXED." The service writer couldn't elaborate further though as he was 'low man on the totem pole' or whatever the fuck that meant. Didn't even make it out of the lot before P0021 and P00C illuminated the gauge cluster.

At this point the dealer gave me 2 options. Another 2.5k+ to tear down the engine and 'hunt' for the issue or a new engine. I left the car there and walked out being so mad. Later, I picked the car up that weekend after they started trying to charge daily storage.

I tried to back charge my card but due to the time between paying and doing so, I wasn't able to. :/ At least my 3 weeks and $3k got rid of the P0018 right? [/rant]




So I've got the car with the following codes.
P0021 Camshaft position "A" - Timing Slow Response Bank 2

P00C Camshaft Position "A" - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance Bank 2


The car has a new Cam Sprocket with ECU, and a new (revised) OCV and fresh oil. My gut feeling says when they did the sprocket/front cover some silicone was dislodged and found itself a new home blocking an oil passage or is clogging an AVCS filter screen. I'm fairly certain that it isn't a sensor issue or the timing chain being off at this point.



Does anyone have any ideas or quick things/diag to try before I'm forced to pull the engine and fully break her down? I'm down for any tricks at this point. Just want the car out of the driveway without having to sell it as a clean titled roller.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Kiske

The car has a new Cam Sprocket with ECU, and a new (revised) OCV and fresh oil. My gut feeling says when they did the sprocket/front cover some silicone was dislodged and found itself a new home blocking an oil passage or is clogging an AVCS filter screen. I'm fairly certain that it isn't a sensor issue or the timing chain being off at this point.

This would be my guess, plugged AVCS filter screen.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Kiske

Hoping for a little guidance before jumping into it this weekend.


Does anyone have any ideas or quick things/diag to try before I'm forced to pull the engine and fully break her down? I'm down for any tricks at this point. Just want the car out of the driveway without having to sell it as a clean titled roller.

Bubba suggests you drive it over to Marlborough Heights this Saturday night, park it and leave the key in it. Call it in stolen Sunday morning then notify your insurance company.

[Kiske]

^ Should have done that after the car caught fire years ago... we couldn't come to an agreement on the value.

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

This would be my guess, plugged AVCS filter screen.

Nope clean as can be.




Took her out this afternoon. Personal best. 1 hour 40minutes. Hindsight pulling without removing the exhaust was a bad idea.

Didn't really find anything, everything look brand new, oil and filters perfect. The only thing that seemed off to me is that during the removal of bank 2's timing chain the cams jumped despite the additional crank rotation with it pointing upwards after removing bank 1's chain. Perhaps the intake cam was actually over advanced? The intake and exhaust were both facing each other like they are supposed to during bank 1's chain removal...

Not quite sure what to do now. Probably blow out the oil passages or something. ??? Weather really hasn't been on my side today and I was hoping it would have been the filters.
About the only passages I've yet to check are the chain cover's...

[NoHaveMSG]

I think I recall bank 2 wanting to do that due to where the lobes are sitting. How was your valve lash?


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[Kiske]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I think I recall bank 2 wanting to do that due to where the lobes are sitting. How was your valve lash?


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Could have been the high pressure fuel pump causing the jump.

I didn't check the lash before disassembly. I will recheck though once the cams/carrier is back in and torqued down. I did measure the lash when I originally put the engine in the car and it was a hair on the tighter side all around but, within specs. There have been zero idling issues so I kind of ruled that out.

Right now I've pretty much flushed every passageway out with brake clean (sans sprocket itself) and checked all rolling surfaces for any signs of scoring/marring caused by contaminants.

I've found a service bulletin for Subaru's AVCS related DTC's [MC-10163017-9999.] Soon as I get some more three bond I'll button her back up and start following it. I probably should have started with that but, I somewhat hoped Subaru would have already went though them... I'm doubting it now though.

1. Check the DTC, FFD

2. Check the oil condition, change oil.

3. Replace OCV, Clear SSM, Perform Drive Cycle(s)

4. Check Harness. OCV/CamAngle/CrankAngle for pin damage and resistances to the ECU.

5. Clear SSM, Drive Cycle, Check that the AVCS ≧ 1000 and is similar value to the opposite banks readings.

6. Verify Oil Pressure isn't low.

7. Check Oil Passages in chain cover.

8. Check Camshaft condition. Replace Cam and Carrier is damage is found.

9. Check the oil line between the oil pump and the cam
sprocket. Replace the oil filter on the cam carrier.

10. Check oil pickup tube strainer for debris.

11. Repeat Step #5 and then Replace ECU.

So right now I think I need to finish cleaning the cam carrier/sprocket passage, check the pickup tube, disassemble and clean the front cover and get the engine back in the car ASAP before checking the wiring harness and doing the drive cycle checks.

[Kiske]

Did all that, also disassembled and cleaned the timing cover and oil pickup tube. Zero debris and build up. Went ahead a replaced the AVCS filters and reassembled. Checked lash too, all still good there. Reassembled and she went back in her hole last night without much fuss. Kinda scary how fast I can swap these engines at this point.

After a few drives and a fresh tank of 93 premium the only code to pop off is P0018... the one I originally paid Subaru to fix. I'll do one more drive cycle to make sure and then flush fluids again.


Will start checking the wiring this weekend after again, swapping sensors.

[ArCha]

Do you have Techstream? Can you check the VVT initial learning positions? I know you said they replaced the ECU but was that after the P0021 and before the P0018? I had to replace the cam sprocket for a a similar code and was able to rest my ECU by swapping it into a buddy's BRZ. Maybe you can get away with the same?


https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=490

[Kiske]

That is what I'm looking at. Something is still off with bank 2's intake. The learning positions are also off. I'm pretty sure they just drove it around the parking lot instead of a proper drive cycle. Being that it is a new ecu I'm not sure I can swap it to make corrections to the learned value. It would take quite a bit of driving to correct the VVT2 Learning for the intake. It's off target by 20 or so.

[ArCha]

My experience has been that once the learned value is off that no amount of driving will correct it. That said swapping the ECU to the other car and back did reset the values instantly but I'm not sure if it was from being put in comms mode or from swapping into the other car. I never used techstream to update the vin so it wasn't that.


I would try putting it in comms mode first and see if that does anything to the initial learning positions table. Disconnect battery, reconnect battery, loop OBD pins 4 and 13, turn key to full on position, wait 30 minutes, turn off, remove loop, and turn on for a couple minutes and see if the values have changed. Don't forget you'll need a strong battery or a tender.


If that doesn't work, between the battery connections, I would place your ECU in another car. Mine had an ecutek tune so I flashed to an OEM rom before I did so. When we reinstalled the other car's ECU after we were done we still did the comms mode steps both when installing their ecu back and when installing yours back in your car.


This should only help with the learned values though if there's something actually wrong I'm not sure it will help. Techstream is pretty good for playing for the angle to test response though.

[mswbrz]

Damn this gave me a buzz just reading the mess, I hope you figure it it out man


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