Stock suspension how good is it?

[Gforce]

Anybody noticed the current season of Top Gear uses the Toyota 86 (BRZ) for its celebrity track laps?

There are some very good displays of what to do (Hoy) and what not to do (Greig, though she looks better behind the wheel, even in the helmet).

I assume they are using the current 2017 model somewhat stripped out to fit the roll cage. Otherwise, it seems to be stock.

The tendency to oversteer is obvious, especially in the wet.

Wonder what the fastest possible lap time might be? Harris or the Stig have not posted a time as yet.

[Clipdat]

To answer your questions...

1.) Very good
2.) Didn't notice
3.) Fast.

[Gforce]

So, maybe not as good as it could be

You might pay more attention, this is the Achilles heel of the BRZ and the reason mods are pretty much essential to fix the factory designed in deficiencies.

Say 1:35?

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Gforce

So, maybe not as good as it could be

You might pay more attention, this is the Achilles heel of the BRZ and the reason mods are pretty much essential to fix the factory designed in deficiencies.

Of course it is not as good as it could be. There are budget constraints. What "designed in deficiencies" are you referring to? I was under the impression that the standard suspension was very good.

[guybo]

Every review of the 86 is basically the same. Every pro who drives it seems to love it (Randy Pobst has a serious man crush on this car). Top Gear uses it as the car for that srat in a reasonably priced car segment. Daily Driver seems to go back to the 86 in every episode.

All this with the stock suspension. So yeah, there's something they like about it and it has to be good.

[churchx]

I find stock suspension surprisingly well chosen compromise (as everything out there is). It's not unbearably harsh yet handles better above most other cars stock suspensions.

About the only gripe i had with it is that to my taste front-rear grip balance should be moved a bit more to front, but i found that only after started tracking car. Next would be dialing more camber for more grip and more even tire wear, but that again is only for ones taking it on track.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Of course it is not as good as it could be. There are budget constraints. What "designed in deficiencies" are you referring to? I was under the impression that the standard suspension was very good.

The tendency to oversteer slows the car down. It was designed in to make a low powered car more exciting to drive. This was not done to save money, obviously, since Subaru has then consistently spent money each model year modifying this tendency out of the chassis.

From an engineering perspective that is a deficiency. From a fun to drive aspect that depends on what you're looking for. Clearly, Top Gear decided to spice up their celebrity drive a little. You may note the number of offs has substantially increased. Also, the car is now fitted with a proper roll cage. The Liana, Laceti, Hyundai/Kia ((Cee'd), and Vauxhall Astra were box stock. That tells you something.

Lap times also illuminate the issue. The only celebrity to have driven both the Liana and the GT86 is Jay Kay, who is a good enough wheelman to have driven at Le Mans, and he cut 13 seconds off the lap time. He also went off learning how to do so. Note the other less talented celebrities don't do much better in the GT86 than in the fwd predecessors. David tenant only knocks 4 seconds off his time in the Lacetti which was a car that is nearly 9 seconds slower than the GT86 when driven by a more skilled celeb.


Everybody who modifies this chassis moves roll stiffness to the front axle, even Subaru. That makes the car quicker.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Gforce

So, maybe not as good as it could be

As good as it could be under what conditions? It's not a race car - it's a really nice handling STREET car, which also swallows giant potholes, can carry a range of loads, etc. Sure, adding more track-focused suspension will make it better on the track, but it'd be at the expense of it's street capability, and let's be honest - the street is where 99.5% of this vehicle's life is spent.

[Gforce]

Top Gear deliberately uses only unmodified street cars for their celeb laps, that's the point of this thread. It presents an objective comparison of the GT 86/BRZ with ordinary fwd hatchbacks when driven by a wide variety of talent over the same circuit.

The Toyota is far and away the most powerful of these "reasonably priced cars".

[TommyW]

For an inexpensive sportscar right out of the box with better tires it's pretty tough to beat. The lack of roll and planted feel is why I bought the car. Probably any car except maybe a GT3 or something similar will always benefit from suspension tweaks. It's an easy car to drive at it's limit with decent rotation. I come from a 911 backround so the slight oversteer is not a big deal.

[venturaII]

The tail happy nature of the FRS doesn't make it slower than the BRZ - it just makes it a different driving experience, more along the lines of a mid-rear engine car. Just as fast, but driven differently. Personally, I prefer the more dynamic feeling of the FRS than the BRZ.

[Gforce]

Objective testing of the FRS chassis against the BRZ chassis established that the BRZ is quicker. Subaru/Toyota eliminated the differences between the two cars within one model year I believe.

All the Top Gear celebrity lap times are conveniently listed in this article:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track

Comparing the Liana to other cars is enhanced by the F1 driver lap times which presumably are the quickest possible lap times for that car.

Comparing each car model across the years can be done by calculating the delta between the quickest times to allow for an across the board driver comparison. Ease of driving can be derived by comparing the average lap time across the models.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Objective testing of the FRS chassis against the BRZ chassis established that the BRZ is quicker.

I can't say I've ever read any such comparison - got a link?


Edit: unless you're talking about a 2017 BRZ PP versus base FRS...

[Icecreamtruk]

I would add my $0.02.

While I think very highly of the stock suspension and drove on it hard for 4 years, and could not race on it anymore as the springs were making all kind of noises, and all 4 dampers were blown (no oil left in them). After having switched to a brand new suspension, which is way harder, changes the balance of the car slightly and the car is set way lower (almost 2" in the front); I would never go back to drive the car with stock suspension on the track, if I had the choice.

Maybe it is the lack of support from not having a bucket seat but I did not enjoy the ridiculous amount of roll I would get and made driving fast around a circuit not as fun. Having to wait for the suspension to settle in a succesion of corners made it a chore, because you needed to plan several corners ahead of time for the roll, not your line, or you braking, but just the roll of the car.

For what its worth. With the same tire setup and power, but with the new suspesion, Im 3 seconds quicker around the track (1:49.3 vs 1:52.8) this year, this was done in a midly damp track that dried up for the new suspension vs a perfectly dry and filled with rubber track in the stock suspension.

This is my experience, yours may vary. The car was a 2013 FR-S with the ridiculous 2.3kg front and 3.8kg rear suspension that makes the tail really loose.