anti-lag? - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Matt@Cosworth · 01-28-2016, 02:34 PM

Gents

what with the amount of large turbos on this forum
I was wondering has anyone experimented with using a really late GDi timing and spark retard to give in essence anti-lag and so spool the turbo up.

its something more and more OEM's are using as rather bizarrely if you don't give it a lot of fuel you end up very very lean about lambda 1.3 and this doesn't contain enough fuel to burn hot so its not like the anti-lag of old where things all melt

the BMW engines all do this which is why they can get 250+ ft/lb at 1500rpm on their turbos

your thoughts?

#maverick# · 01-28-2016, 03:22 PM

One of the more well known tuners James Martin has done something like this on stock ecu. Unfortunately, he is banned here

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPskKzBy6mY"]FRS antilag - YouTube[/ame]

spitfire481 · 01-28-2016, 04:37 PM

i was making about 10psi off the line on a precision 5858 with ecutek launch control

Matt@Cosworth · 01-28-2016, 05:22 PM

Yes with launch control though you hold a high rpm so 4000rpm?

I'm more interested in a normal driving situation where you just roll on the throttle at low rpm

86drift · 01-28-2016, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt@Cosworth

Gents

what with the amount of large turbos on this forum
I was wondering has anyone experimented with using a really late GDi timing and spark retard to give in essence anti-lag and so spool the turbo up.

its something more and more OEM's are using as rather bizarrely if you don't give it a lot of fuel you end up very very lean about lambda 1.3 and this doesn't contain enough fuel to burn hot so its not like the anti-lag of old where things all melt

the BMW engines all do this which is why they can get 250+ ft/lb at 1500rpm on their turbos

your thoughts?

The high compression ratio of the FA20 helps spool up the bigger turbos so there isn't a great need to play with this stuff. You cruise at about 2.5k so boost at lower RPMs isn't needed.

That being said, I'm going to implement a rally style ALS later this year. Just for the sound :-D

GsxrMe · 01-29-2016, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #maverick#

One of the more well known tuners James Martin has done something like this on stock ecu. Unfortunately, he is banned here

Why is James Martin banned?

funwheeldrive · 01-29-2016, 11:27 PM

Is this similar to a stutter box?

Matt@Cosworth · 01-30-2016, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86drift

The high compression ratio of the FA20 helps spool up the bigger turbos so there isn't a great need to play with this stuff. You cruise at about 2.5k so boost at lower RPMs isn't needed.

That being said, I'm going to implement a rally style ALS later this year. Just for the sound :-D

its more to get a big engine feel really, you're right in saying that you don't 'need' the boost at 2.5K but its like having a 3.5ltr v6 instead of a 2.0ltr 4 you can be tickling along at 1500rpm and just roll on the throttle and it pulls hard

so no-one apart this fellow who's banned?

Spartarus · 01-30-2016, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt@Cosworth

Gents

what with the amount of large turbos on this forum
I was wondering has anyone experimented with using a really late GDi timing and spark retard to give in essence anti-lag and so spool the turbo up.

its something more and more OEM's are using as rather bizarrely if you don't give it a lot of fuel you end up very very lean about lambda 1.3 and this doesn't contain enough fuel to burn hot so its not like the anti-lag of old where things all melt

the BMW engines all do this which is why they can get 250+ ft/lb at 1500rpm on their turbos

your thoughts?

I'm interested. You have my attention.

If you have anything you'd like to try, I have a tuning device and an engine I'm willing to blow up.... I mean, experiment with.

Coincidentally, this motor has sodium-filled exhaust valves from the factory, so they're very temperature tolerant... The GDI seals are not.

I worry a little about detonation at Lambda 1.3 and any boost though... The late timing should help, but then I'm not following where all the torque is supposed to be coming from if you back the timing off that much... If you transition back to traditional timing/fueling at low RPM, I'm liking the chances of transient detonation during the transit, and you'll likely lose any turbo spool you had...

I'm not arguing, I'm musing. I'm curious, but I'm afraid it's beyond my tuning knowledge.

I see in the Martin youtube video he passes 5 PSI pretty early, but not 1500 early, more like 25-27..

OkieSnuffBox · 01-30-2016, 04:14 PM

Video earlier is not anti-lag. That looks like launch control.

The reason street cars don't use anti-lag is because it destroys everything. Rally cars use it for increased transient response from on/off throttle applications.

Making it crack/pop on decel is one thing (not anti-lag), true anti-lag kills everything quickly.

Matt@Cosworth · 01-30-2016, 04:30 PM

the 1st thing to try is just going for a really late Gdi timing?
So try about 150 degrees later than normal this will produce odd lambda readings due to the post combustion but you should also see a positive increase in boost

#maverick# · 02-01-2016, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GsxrMe

Why is James Martin banned?

Something about the Admins being Nazis or something like that

BBDGriptonia · 02-04-2016, 04:54 PM

I am in for results

Who's testing this concept?

FRS Justin · 04-01-2016, 01:08 PM

Any further development???

01-28-2016, 02:34 PM	#1
Matt@Cosworth Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Drives: blue - Cosworth SC stage 3.0 Location: Northants - UK Posts: 333 Thanks: 3 Thanked 394 Times in 184 Posts Mentioned: 34 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	anti-lag? Gents what with the amount of large turbos on this forum I was wondering has anyone experimented with using a really late GDi timing and spark retard to give in essence anti-lag and so spool the turbo up. its something more and more OEM's are using as rather bizarrely if you don't give it a lot of fuel you end up very very lean about lambda 1.3 and this doesn't contain enough fuel to burn hot so its not like the anti-lag of old where things all melt the BMW engines all do this which is why they can get 250+ ft/lb at 1500rpm on their turbos your thoughts?

01-28-2016, 03:22 PM	#2
#maverick# Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Drives: 2006 Pontiac GP (SOLD), 2014 FR-S Location: Chicago Posts: 378 Thanks: 296 Thanked 145 Times in 113 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	One of the more well known tuners James Martin has done something like this on stock ecu. Unfortunately, he is banned here [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPskKzBy6mY"]FRS antilag - YouTube[/ame] __________________ "Project cars are like New Years Eve. Endless preparation, hype, a sleepless night of fun, followed promptly by massive headaches and regret." - Anonymous

01-28-2016, 04:37 PM	#3
spitfire481 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Drives: 2JZ FRS Location: Pure Automotive Performance Posts: 1,378 Thanks: 97 Thanked 1,354 Times in 621 Posts Mentioned: 27 Post(s) Tagged: 2 Thread(s)	i was making about 10psi off the line on a precision 5858 with ecutek launch control __________________ Pure Automotive Performance MoTeC Build Thread @spitfire481

04-01-2016, 01:08 PM	#14
FRS Justin Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Drives: 2013 Asphalt FRS Location: San Antonio Posts: 994 Thanks: 693 Thanked 695 Times in 417 Posts Mentioned: 22 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Any further development??? __________________ Instagram FT86PROJECT9S Facebook FT86PROJECT9S 710whp

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01-28-2016, 05:22 PM	#4
Matt@Cosworth Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Drives: blue - Cosworth SC stage 3.0 Location: Northants - UK Posts: 333 Thanks: 3 Thanked 394 Times in 184 Posts Mentioned: 34 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Yes with launch control though you hold a high rpm so 4000rpm? I'm more interested in a normal driving situation where you just roll on the throttle at low rpm

01-29-2016, 11:27 PM	#7
funwheeldrive Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Drives: BANNED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH Location: MODS ARE ON A POWER TRIP Posts: 3,447 Thanks: 7,830 Thanked 3,022 Times in 1,409 Posts Mentioned: 38 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Is this similar to a stutter box?

01-30-2016, 04:14 PM	#10
OkieSnuffBox Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Drives: '23 BRZ Limited Location: OKC, OK Posts: 2,084 Thanks: 680 Thanked 1,330 Times in 758 Posts Mentioned: 9 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Video earlier is not anti-lag. That looks like launch control. The reason street cars don't use anti-lag is because it destroys everything. Rally cars use it for increased transient response from on/off throttle applications. Making it crack/pop on decel is one thing (not anti-lag), true anti-lag kills everything quickly.

01-30-2016, 04:30 PM	#11
Matt@Cosworth Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Drives: blue - Cosworth SC stage 3.0 Location: Northants - UK Posts: 333 Thanks: 3 Thanked 394 Times in 184 Posts Mentioned: 34 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	the 1st thing to try is just going for a really late Gdi timing? So try about 150 degrees later than normal this will produce odd lambda readings due to the post combustion but you should also see a positive increase in boost

02-04-2016, 04:54 PM	#13
BBDGriptonia Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Drives: blah Location: no where Posts: 16 Thanks: 54 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I am in for results Who's testing this concept?

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