Is 200whp achievable on OFT with headers and 91 like ecutek?
 

Some threads claim that they can get 200whp on an ecutek tune with just headers. I haven't seen any numbers like that for an OFT. Are the ecutek tunes superior to the OFT tunes or are they essentially the same?

I'm pretty sure that car had a full complete exhaust not just header.

"Well, we've done it again. This time around we've hit 200whp with 91 Octane on a Naturally Aspirated BRZ with a stock engine. Mods included were a JDL UEL Header, JDL Over Pipe, and JDL Front Pipe. There may or may not have been a drop in filter or intake on this particular brz, I'm not entirely sure. "

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64770

Your also comparing an OFT tune which is a canned or off the shelf one size fits all tune with an Ecutek custom dyno tune.
let the oft guys (or any other competent tuner ) do a custom tune on car with same mods and they would produce similar results.



What hp did a stock car post on that dyno ? you realy need to look at percentage or hp increase not the end numbers as all dynos read different unless your comparing same dyno or at least same dyno type with same calibration.

No reason it could not be done your changing the same tables in the ecu with ecutek OFT/Romraider Ecuflash Brz-edit ect.

If you are referring to that post by delicious tuning that steve linked, I see a dyno chart of a 86 making 174 whp and then they apply pseudomath to arrive at that "200" number by attempting to relate mustange dyno numbers to dynojet numbers.

Not knocking Delicious Tuning as I think they do amazing stuff but the important thing to remember here is that dyno numbers can vary wildly from car to car and dyno to dyno depending on many variables such as weather conditions and how the dyno was setup.

Furthermore, I don't understand the fascination with peak HP numbers. As an example take a mythical car that makes 200HP at 7000rpm as its peak number but makes like 100hp almost everywhere else in the rpm range. Now compare that to a car that makes 190hp over the entire rpm range. Which would you like to drive?

People need to stop and really look at dyno charts and see whats going on instead of blindly focusing on a single data point or you run the risk of missing out on extremely interesting possibilities like the ESC setup.

A more useful (but humbling) number would be "80% of the time, HP is over X". Perhaps further separating into street and race RPM ranges. But then tuners wouldn't look as good for that one tiny spot their intake got a 5whp improvement, so this'll never happen.

Your goal should be gained whp over stock. Most full bolt on frs/brz make about 25ish whp over stock on good 93 pump. Some really good tuners with an aggressive tune for ideal conditions might get close to 30 whp over stock. Forget about getting some dyno number. My mr2 made 311 whp on one dyno and 360 whp on another same tune and gas.

Well said. I often think that how we measure a car's power is flawed.. Area under the curve, as you eloquently put it, is MUCH more important than peak.

How can we quantify this area under the curve on a Cartesian plane? Using integration/calculating the integral would be one easy approach. Would love to see this kind of perspective prevail over the currently "peak hp/tq" metrics

:thumbsup:

This is a really good idea. I bet people would be surprised by how much "area under the curve" the twins have. I would be shocked if it didn't beat the pants off the S2K and all 2.0 WRX's, which people typically consider "faster". Somebody should start a thread about this. Would be interesting.

We only use Dynojets for custom tunes. Other tunes use other dyne's and then apply a very optimistic "correction" to bring their numbers to "Dynojet-like" numbers. Unfortunately (or fortunately for them), this is not accurate or even logically sound.

The truth is that any flash tuning solution will results in equal power gains all things equal. Any tuner suggesting that their Kung Fu is stronger than anyone's else's Kung Fu needs to be taken down a couple notches.

Shiv what do you think about the current automotive power metrics of peak whp/tq, and our proposed metric of finding the 'area under the curve' via integrals and calculus?

Would this be feasible? What are you thoughts on how people measure and discern the power of a combustion system?

I think that is the best way to quantify power/power gains. In fact, we employed the same calculation back in the late 90s when compared power curve (area under the curve) in Sport Compact Car magazine's Ultimate Street Car Shootout :)

Would following the integration process arrive us at similar results as you guys? How'd yall do it? ;)

http://www.wyzant.com/resources/less...nding_the_area

We used Excel :) By exporting the raw torque and RPM data from the dynojet run file, we created a spreadsheet that took rectangular "slices" of the torque curve and calculated area. Then we added up the areas of all the slices to get a reasonably accurate total area.

Prime.. Thanks Shiv. I teach a business Excel course for accounting and MIS students at the University of Washington | Bothell campus, and love that dang program to death. Will certainly explore creating a macro-enabled tool to do this for people!

Awesome! Remember that you'll need the raw RPM and Torque Data from the Dynojet run file (.drf). I can send you a sample data file if you need it.

I'm not so sure. Most of the dynos where bolt-on Twins are making ~200 whp, you see the torque rise from 6000-7000 rpm, which produces a somewhat inflated peak hp number.

The torque curves for a lot of larger displacement engines (and especially turbo engines) peak earlier in the midrange and drop off, leading to more area under the curve.

I think this is an issue for some of the Twins competing in power/weight-classed time attack series. Not enough area under the curve compared with larger displacement engines.

For what it's worth, the "pseudo numbers" we're pulling out of our rears are to a specific Dynojet up in LA that we've taken the time to do comparison baseline pulls on in the same day to our Mustang.

We used the same car, on the same day, in relative same weather, with all the same mods and tune file to get an accurate conversion factor. We only do this because no one seems to be happy with numbers the way a Mustang dyno will spit them out as per standard.

As far as an above post which stated something along the lines of " Now compare that to a car that makes 190hp over the entire rpm range. Which would you like to drive?"; Horsepower is a unit of torque over time, and as such, for that kind of HP curve your torque would have to peak almost immediately in the low end, and nose dive the rest of the way to redline. It would feel and drive awful, with no pull. The only real reason to tune for that kind of power delivery is if you were in something like a NASA Time Trials race, where you're power limited by the rules and want the maximum amount of torque you can have without breaking the horsepower limits.

Shiv is correct in the statement that any standard tuning solution (EcuTek, OFT, BRZEdit, etc) given the same values may produce the same numbers. There are certain above and beyond features that some solutions may have over another, and perhaps yet another solution may have its own perks elsewhere in ease of use, or what have you. In the end the tuning solution you choose is about what's right for you. As far as the tuner goes, the basics are all going to be about the same, and then every tune has their own special way of mixing it up a bit to suit their style.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Zach
Delicious Tuning

We can argue over semantics if you'd like and obviously my example was a poor one, but the point still stands. Focusing on a single data point (Peak WHP) when looking at a dyno chart is neither productive or a true representation of the actual tune. As for your "correction factor", I have no idea how accurate it is and its not really the point. Its a number that has math applied to it to simulate what the results would be on a different make of dyno. Perhaps the better solution to the community is to focus more on HP gained over stock and area under the curve gained. The education process needs starts with the vendors rather than acquiescing to the desires of the uninformed consumer. Maybe some effort could be given to this task as your results are great on their own without resorting to pseuodo math.

We've actually worked quite a bit on that, and have a multitude of graphs and numbers available on our website for any consumer with the desire to learn about possible gains out there.

http://www.delicioustuning.com/Stage_2_PumpGas

Complete with area under the curve gains, peak gains, drag curves, corrected power curves, ambient temps, intake temps, humidity, oil temps, even rotating mass.

We aren't hiding anything from the consumer. It's all available right here for everyone to see. :)

Sincerely,

Zach
Delicious Tuning

I can tell you as the owner of two S2000s (AP1) with simple bolt-ons and an FRS with header+cat-back+tune I would have thought for sure the FRS would win in a drag race due to the area under the curve advantage the boxer has. But I drag raced a friend in his bone stock, high mileage AP2 (slight bump in tq I know) several times from dig, roll, didn't matter, he JUST had me beat every time by a car length or two...more the faster we went. Similar tires, I using "Launch Control" (ECUtek) he wingin' it of course. Really surprised me. I think the weight difference was the determining factor though.

VTEC TFW lol

v cool :)

FRS should be lighter than S2K. S2K is just as faster car.

strange how in my situation a friend in his ap2 s2000(they keep the2.0 engine here) against my jdl uel-berk front-miltek catback toyobaru and he kept losing in the same way you lost by 2 car lengths and kept pulling away at higher speeds.. we even changed car and the results were the same. mayby the 2.2 engine really helps the s2000 in your case.

The "area under the curve" of a power and RPM plot is energy delivered.
If you're looking at two plots and compare the area between the two plots then you have a difference in energy delivered, which is what most people comparing two plots are thinking in their head, anyway.
If you take the total energy delivered and divide it by the total RPM it's delivered over you have an average of the power produced. This is a useful number.

Let's not forget that the S2K also has significantly more aggressive gearing. :)

Sincerely,

Zach
Delicious Tuning

But, also the rev range to take advantage of that more aggressive gearing.

The solution is E85 :cheers:

Closest E85 is 2 hours away. :cry:

SOOOOOO FARRRRR!

I only ran a tank of E85, I feel like I should do more research before I fully commit. It was a very fun tank of corn juice lol.

Im in the middle of my first tank too! haha. I just wish there was a station in south OC, so i dont have to go to anaheim. But the only issue Ive read so far would be to change the oil out more often. I definitely need to research a bit more as well, but im stoked!!! I love how the car feels now

Im in anaheim so that propel station is only a few miles away from me lol.

The oil changing thing isn't so much an issue, its more or less maintenance! I'd just be worried about the longevity of the fuel injection components. The other property that E85 has it attracts water, but due to living in a arid climate thats not so much an issue.

No failures yet though, so thats a good sign.

ahh, youre so lucky! I go to disneyland with my girl a lot, so it still kinda works out for me lol.

And yeah thats true. I was reading a thread about gunk builk up in the injectors? I dont fully remember, but running 91 cleaned it up again. long term efffects look promising, but I suppose you never really know. but thank god for the california weather. Too bad we run a high risk of getting reffed in this state if we wanted to go catless.

Bitches love Disney haha!


Many people just run E85, I have read that about running a tank of 91 as well. I have catless headers, cops really don't take a second glance unless you're hooninig. Which I'm definitely guilty of lol.

hahaha straight up!

and I feel like the cops in mission viejo are super anal. I always see people getting reffed here, and two of my friends have been reffed by the same cop :thumbdown: lucky for me, that same cop just gave me an exhaust ticket and a citation for "rolling" through a stop sign. I claimed i stopped but he said i was going 1 mph.. either way, I entered the intersection safely and cautiously.
but im definitely guilty of hooning in my freetime as well, haha.

anyways.. this thread was taken way off topic lol