FRS FA20 turbo vs FRS lsx/2jz
 

Been reading around and it's becoming a trend for some people ditching the fa20 for either a v8 or a 2jz.

Now, I would die for my engine bay to lay grace with this engine:
http://news.epicinter.net/wp-content.../01/516025.jpg



I'm a big fan of this motor too!:
http://frsbrzperformance.com/wp-cont...2-1024x682.jpg




I bought my frs because of how it handles amazingly well. The kicker for all of us is that this car was meant for more power many times more than what it left the showroom floor with. We all know it needs more power. The platform for great handling was the seller for me. Now, add power!

Which takes us to two of these options:

1. Fully build the car using our original FA20 to 500hp

2. Fully build the car tossing in an lsx for 500hp

The unknown here would be how an lsx/2jz would change the dynamics of the car, though. I saw a picture somewhere of a weighed-in LSX BRZ and it scaled at ~2950 lbs. Also, with an upright V8 sitting in the engine room, how will that effect the physics of the car.

So, what would be your guesses on how a built FA20 turbo prepared FRS would go against a zombie swap lsx/2jz prepared FRS?

Just curious as to what the opinion is here as I've never seen a topic like this asked before ahaha.

The 500 HP FA20 tend to have reliability issues, but seem to be amazing when they work.

2JZ is like any 2JZ swap...a lot depends on donor.

LS swap is same as 2JZ, but seem to be easier to locate...and you can actually buy a crate motor from Chevy rather easily (if you have the money of course).

All 3 of these options are out of my skill range though.

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A zombie swap? Keep in mind an LS1 engine can be mild and make 310-330RWHP or with bolt ons a bit more...with a cam, you are near the 400 mark, with cam and heads and an optimized exhaust you can reach up to 440-450 RWHP.

The LS1 isn't much heavier than our engine, said and done, and is personally the route I would go.

Heck you can go pull a 5.3 block out of a truck or an SUV for stupid cheap and build it for a little turbo. There really is no limit with the right budget....800RWHP can be done with an LS and forced induction...also don't forget how well they respond to nitrous.

The big thing to keep in mind is that the 2JZ has an iron block, LS is aluminum.


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As much as a Toyota fan boy I may be, I'd go for the LSx engine in this chassis before the 2j. Like you mentioned, it is significantly lighter and it is way more compact.

LSX swap is one of my dreams. Maybe in 5 years...

As with all non-direct bolt in swaps, the cost of the swap is going to be more than the cost of building the existing motor.

I would rathe build this vehicle ground up...It's more fun that way...

You are missing one huge point. Torque. A built fa20 at 500 whp will have around 400 ish wtq at 5,000+rpm. A 500 whp ls v8 will weigh about the same but will make that torque around 2000 rpm and can be made to surpass 550 wtq at that whp level if built right.
Weight will be close but the broad torque band is what is the game changer.
I love the 2jz but the ls is the logical superior engine of those two.

Not exactly true there.

I've calculated doing a fully built Fa20 with all the turbo stuff going for 500hp and it's up there in costs compared to doing an lsx swap with a used motor. Just with the lsx swap, you'd be in with a used motor and going the fa20 route you'd have a freshly built engine.

Obviously if you went for a crate lsx, it will be quite a bit more expensive than going fully built fa20 turbo.

Most important here would be reliability of the v8 as it would be barely pushed while the 4banger is living at high stress.

The only thing going for the fa20 would be keeping the original car handling dynamics. Going v8 or 2jz is still unknown as far as how the car will change in driving.

Mine should be up and running by early next month. Would be this month but I have too many other projects going simultaneously that need to get finished first. Anyway I'll be able to give a pretty good impression review since my personal FR-S was supercharged, then Turbocharged, and now a modded LS2 swap is in process. Previous setup was 430whp on e85. Next will be 525whp NA goodness on 91oct with a whole lot less stress on the engine.

The cost argument is really negligible especially when you consider how much more reliable the LSx is in long run.

Come on hmong, option...

3. Fully build the car tossing in 2JZ for 500hp :D

JK But out of your choices, it is a no brainer to go with the LSX over the boosted FA20. Go with your gut instinct bro!


True. Also comparing the stock internals of the 2JZ vs. the LSX...

"While it may be pushing the limits, the stock internals (2JZ) have been proven to hold over 800 WHP and 7500+ RPM repeatedly. Even this car's previous setup dyno'd 760 WHP at 29 PSI and drove for years at the 650 WHP level." - http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...-Weight.aspxaQ

Where as a LS1/LS2's stock internals gets "iffy after 550-600 WHP." - http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...nd-max-hp.html

Again, it depends on your long term goals. With any of the choices mentioned above, 500 WHP in this chassis will be wickedly fast!!!


I am a fan of the LS engine as well but .. logical superior engine of the two? :iono:


525 WHP of NA power sounds like fun! Cannot wait to see some videos and timeslips of that beast!


Honestly if I could have another project car, it would be a full built LSX 86. I already have my hands full with my project so that will have to wait. Still eyeballing the new C7 though. ;)


.

Keep in mind even LS motors have weaknesses (piston slap for starters). HP/liter isn't a definitive measure of "stress" on an engine either. Engine layout plays in a hell of a lot.


Perfect example is 2JZ vs LSx. 7 mains vs 5, piston oil squirters, inherently perfect balance, etc


Also, don't get me started on the full variable valve timing and dual injection system of the FA20 being lightyears ahead of most LS motors.


Still say if your goal is only 500HP, the LS is a waste of money (hell, Full Blown did over that on a stock FA20 and a build FA20 should take that all day)

Thanks! I will be looking forward to your impressions of the swap.

500+hp, 91 octane and reliability to boot. 4 bangers can only dream...

To each is own I suppose but all I do is work on these FA20s and personally it's a love hate for me. Love em because they constantly break and I make money, hate em because they constantly break.

What you say makes the FA20 lightyears better is also its achillies heel. It's a neat engine but I think once you spend a lot of time with highly modified FA20s your opinion of them changes.

500hp can be ran all day everyday with an LSx or 2JZ, with an FA20....... not so much. Even built their life expectancy is much shorter. Both the LSx and 2JZ have gobs of room to grow and honestly when I was at 430whp with the FA20, traction was already an issue even at 70+mph. I went this direction for reliability and big NA power. Should I choose down the road I can implement forced induction. This makes the car essentially useless on the track or road but it looks sweet and performs well on the dyno haha.

Either way everyone will go their own way, that's what makes this fun. Me personally, the FA20 is just not the best platform for my preference anymore. Regardless it will have a place in my heart but so do most all engines at some level or another.

In the FA20's defense,

Just wanted to add that for a 2.0L classed engine, I'm happy that I have an FA20 for $25k new. It gets great gas mileage. Seriously, it's good for what it is hahah.

For a simple 2.0L class, the FA20 has great engine architecture. It'll get the job done. I've always been a 4 cylinder lover. Economy yet powerful. Just needs low compression + boost build. This car was only a $25k Subaru / Toyota venture. Glad it even came out!

But for all out crazies, you'll need some sort of I6, V6, or V8. Preferably with forced induction ahah.



Everybody knows that if you wanna go fast, a 4 cylinder won't cut it! Rest assured, if this FA20 ever fails for whatever reason, this car makes a good candidate for a 600 "reliable" horsepowers and V8. I'm going to find me another engine surely. A 2gr twin turbo setup sounds gravy but an LSx is simpler. 600hp should be enough for this little car. I can't see anybody wanting more unless you're building some drag car.

But getting back to the 4 cylinders, I like my FA20 for what it is. :)

Unless you plan to stuff 350+ wide rear semi-slick tires, talking about 800 hp LSX or 2JZ is just plain dumb. I would not thrust an FA20 with 400+hp. I would rather have a mild supercharged FA20 in the 250-300hp range.

For a swap, I would have to research, but i would have to check which LS engine is the smallest in overall size. I would drop an LS3 or a 5.7L LS1 from a C5 Corvette if it ended up smaller and lighter. Either one has more then enough power in stock form and they have great after market products.

Here is my 2 cents.

Boosted FA20 - Whether it is supercharged or turbocharged, you will have reliability issues down the road. You will have upkeep maintenance which will be periodic, nevertheless costly.

As far as a LSX or 2JZ swap, this will easily cost $15k if not $20k. Why not sell your car and purchase a different one with more power straight from the factory such as a Corvette, Camaro, or Mustang? Personally I am not an advocate of extensive modifications (either of your choices).

lSX > 2jz. Just because the LS looks better in the engine bay.

Cause of the engine covers :bellyroll:

With lsx swaps don't be a poser. Get black engine covers not ones that say "Corvette" on them. :lol:

I rather see a big ass turbo and 2jz in the engine bay. Plus you can have a large and intimidating intercooler peeping through your front bumper!

Without a doubt

2jz > lsx

Don't fight the temptation!!! lol

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8T9io5gpp20"]World Fastest Toyota GT 86-2JZ Runs 9.1 @ 256 KM/H Built By EKanooRacing - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NwVVyvNLPmg"]Ryan Tuerck's New 2013 Formula Drift FRS Portland Build: Tuerck'd Bonus - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PgSAfmiE5JU"]Toyota GT86 with a 2jz swap on low boost - YouTube[/ame]

The first question you should ask... Why do you need 500 hp? Because without upgradig damn near the whole car then then the power is worthless other then to brag to the Internet that you have 500 hp. Also, after all that upgrading why not just buy a corvette?

If it's just for the challenge of hitting 500 hp yourself then have fun.

True. I have traction problems at 400wtq. Let alone 500+

Exactly! Keep in mind guys, 95% of the people that say they're going with a LSX, 2JZ, or whatever swap, end up dropping their projects because it goes over their heads. Kind of like those two guys working on their 1-2 year long "2JZ Project". @slicktop @Drift&Drag Is it really worth it to dump that much money and time into this chassis?? Not only that, but what about utilizing the power behind the build. Both engines are over built for what this car can handle. SMFH What a waste!! lol

LSx > 2JZ

Naturally aspirated high displacement engines FTW

Buy Literbike ===> go faster than ANY swapped/modded FR-S

and for pennies on the dollar too...

^not true.

I have just a turbo kit and I beat 600s. 2jz frs' s are running low 9s. Most liter bikes run 10s.

Haven't really been following the drag threads, but where are the fast twins at now? I let someone with far more skill than myself do a few passes on my old $3500 bone stock 2006 CBR1000RR and the best run was a 10.13

:bow: I stand corrected.

Still, if you want to go fast it's hard to make a compelling argument against bikes. Unless, of course money is of absolutely no concern.

Guess I'm in the 5%. Been 2 weeks and I'm almost done. Just waiting on parts. I have never understood why people talk down on swaps of any kind. It's at the very heart of hot rodding and tuning. If people were rational with this industry their would be no such thing as aftermarket performance.

The cost keeps getting brought up and honestly that tells me that those concerned with price either hate on these swaps because they themselves can't afford it or they just don't comprehend the real cost of a reliable FA20 at those same power levels. Why not go and buy a corvette? Well simply put, that takes the fun out of it. Nothing wrong with a vette (I love em) but for me I like the 86 chassis but prefer the GM powertrain. Just like anything you get use to power and these chassis handle 500hp just fine. While not for the faint of heart the pedal by design achieves more than just on/off haha.

Not sure if serious...

Still not convinced that 500 hp is useable on this chassis... Most "500 hp" builds are over built and achieve nothing other that sounding cool when you read off the mods sheet. Props for having the technical fortitude to actually do the work though. Just seems as a useful as tits on a bull.

Also, basically you're swapping a Twins body onto a GM car, almost nothing except the look of the car will remain in order to put that kind of power down on a consistent basis.

Couldn't agree more! Most of the ~300whp 86s on this forum will completely run away from the 500whp ones while they sit and spin. Totally unusable power in 99% of real world situations.

People have their own opinions of what they think this car can accomplish which some I find comical. It is naive to state that people cannot afford it. Shoot I rather invest in my house than an automobile which is the worst subject to dump money into. If you want something with a LSX, get a Vette. If you want something with a 2JZ that would hold its value, get a 1993-1998 Supra TT.

I wouldn't have posted it lol

Well said.

Well said.

Sounds like neither of you know how to drive. Nor do you understand the use of traction control aids I guess

To say there is nothing left of the 86 is also not even remotely true. The only thing different is the engine and trans.

Oh well.......... steps out to shop to actually build cars.

People are boring now I guess.