Why the Toyota 86 is a Great Car.
 

There has been an influx lately on the topic that maybe forced induction isn't needed. People are talking, realizing. And it's not just FI for that matter. I have read more intelligent, more satisfying posts on the forum than I've seen since joining back in 12.

Members are starting to reach a satisfaction without a need, something I have experienced since day one. I believe there are two kinds of 86 owners at this point, those that have not yet come to a realization and those that know what they have. "Wait, what's this guy talking about?", you're probably saying, "There could be an infinite number of reasons to buy this car, and that's in the eye of the beholder."

While this is true, it's this influx lately... I think, no, I know that some of you want to come to a realization that this a great car. I want to share with you some information from my perspective. Yeah, a lot of what's written here is opinionated, but it might hit closer to home than you think. It's OK to buy this car for it is, not what it could be.

To begin to understand why this car is great, I'd like to go back a little, to the late 80's. This is when what I believe was the golden age of automotive achievement. During this time the Japanese in particular were locked in a development race (like what the Germans are doing today) which led to the production of a few of my favorite cars and certainly some of the best of all time. Now, of course there were also wonderful cars like the F40 and 959, but the big power those cars made came with big problems, not to mention a big price tag. Japan on the other hand were making sports cars for the people. Simple cars. Cars that worked.

One such car in particular, and in my opinion the best car ever made, was the Honda NSX. This car had the recipe for what makes a perfect sports car:

Naturally aspirated engine
Lightweight
Rear wheel drive
Affordable
Reliable
and most importantly a manual transmission.

I know that Honda wasn't the first to get the recipe right, but I think they had perfected it to a level that is unmatched today. I could go into more detail why I specifically chose this car, (the Pininfarina styling, the 23 step aviation style paint work for the aluminum body, the fact that 200 workers with a minimum 10 years experience were hand chosen to assembly it, and so on) but I want to stay on point to keep your focus. Honda's goal was to make a car that could balance usable power with reliability. There are no turbos. There is no immense horsepower output. There is no slap shift automatic transmission doing the work. It's a car that requires the driver to actually drive. The power has to worked for, the high revving engine has to been taken to the limit. That's what it was designed to do and it's all done at speeds that are sane. It's a true drivers car meant for people who are passionate about driving. Best of all, it can be driven all day, everyday. It can be enjoyed by everyone. This is the same recipe that exists in the 86. (I know that the 86 falls a little short in performance of the Honda, and some might say that 60k in 1991 wasn't exactly cheap but the simple formula is there.)


Memeber Trackrider54 summed it up best:
The NSX is a benchmark that has been lost sight of. Nowadays it's all about horsepower numbers and track times, and I guess that's what it takes to stay competitive in today's market. That's what it has evolved into. My friend recently asked me to watch a Motor Trend video pitting the new Camaro Z/28 against the Nissan GT-R. He said with a grin, "I'll tell you what right now we are in the golden age of automotive". I just could not agree less. I'd say it's the pinnacle no doubt, but the former belongs to a different time. Anyone can throw a big engine in a car, but it's what makes that connection between the driver and the road that counts. Today a lot of enthusiasts are persuaded by the next big thing. It's almost turning into more of a culture or status statement that it is about actually appreciating the car. "It needs more power", or "wheres the turbo" is commonplace.

Today we are fortunate to have a car like the Toyota 86. It almost feels criminal that it's priced so low. Or as Arron Robinson of Car and Driver said when referencing the FR-S with the Porsche Cayman, "And if you can’t pay it, feel lucky to live in a time when there’s such a superb alternative that’s affordable."
There is a reason this car has won so many awards. In many ways it's a lot like my dad's MGB. Just a blast to drive. Even a low speeds it feels like a rocket. When it was new, those cars were considered a cheap low performance car, but in retrospect they out performed any mustang in fun factor and drive ability and are readily sought after today. 200hp isn't much on paper, but it's more than adequate for a car that weighs some 2700 pounds. There is actually a lot more performance factored into this platform than I think even owners give credit for. I'm going to compile a list of some aspects of the car which a lot of you might not be aware of.

With all that being said, i'm not saying there isn't room for improvement...

...Tetsuya Tada is brilliant man.

When he was randomly chosen out of the blue to head the development of the platform he had the opportunity to go in any direction he wanted. He followed two principles: A back to basics approach and to create a car for anyone, one that can modified to each individuals liking. Modifying this car was half what it was designed for, that's where he drew the inspiration from the original AE86 corolla. But while this car makes such a great starting point for a track, drift, autox or what have you, that doesn't mean it isn't a great car already. It doesn't have to have a widebody kit bolted all over it to be good. It doesn't have to have huge wheels. It doesn't have to have a supercharger or turbocharger. All it's needs is a driver.

I encourage you all to check out the 86 Development Story here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5274

and if you have time I recommend this fantastic video review by Nino Karotta:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYrvhkIivgA"]Epic Scion FR-S, Toyota GT86 test drive: racetrack, drift & cross-continental dash - HD - YouTube[/ame]




I'd like to leave you with a quote from widely respected automotive journalist Jeremy Clarkson;
"In traffic, you'll be in a car, same as everyone else. You're no better off than Simon Cowell in his Roller or that foolish idiot in the Nissan Versa. It's the same story on the motorway. But there will come a moment when the traffic thins, the police aren't looking and there's a nice bit of road ahead. At a time like this, a GT86 will make you happy. You will be reveling in the sort of thrills normally only on offer to the super-rich, but your thrill is better, because it's not scary. To make a Ferrari misbehave, you need to be doing Mach 2. To make a GT86 squirrel about, you only need to be doing 20."

The problem with the world is that, people always want more.

The Miata is still arguably considered a great, small, RWD sports car that is also fun to drive and is reliable. Cheap to mod and maintain as well. The FR-S has easily slipped into the territory of that legend and point-for-point is as close to that as possible. The S2000 is another example, but can be more car than some can handle.

I have a nice big mod list for the car, but by the end of the day, it'll remain a NA car. That keeps the car relatively reliable, simple, and cheap (ish) to maintain. That's the magic of this car, IMO. It is a new gem of the auto enthusiast world like the Miata was (and in some ways, still is). It's also still very approachable to more people - it appeals to nearly every niche segment of the fun car market - it can be tracked, autox'd, modded, slammed, or simply left alone and used as a really good looking and reliable DD.

Fucking brag about it.

Agree 100%. .

The way I'm modifying my car is to try to accentuate the perfect balance that Tada achieved. Simple exhaust mods with hi flow cats, more free flowing intake, spring drop of 1", wider street tires 235 and finally a mild tune.

I feel that all this car needs is 20-30+ HP at the wheels more and some slightly stickier tires. I still kept my stock wheels just in case of a skid pan day though.

co-sign 100%

Well, @FRSupra ..... that was an interesting read .... long, but interesting ....;)

I can personally identify with many of your thoughts. From 1970-1979, I drove a MGB-GT. From 2006-2012, I drove a NC Miata. For the last year I've driven an FR-S. Yep, all three "got it right" ..... in their time ....for me at least. ...;)


humfrz

well written. and i agree with many of the points made. going full throttle in this car is fun.

I love my car

TLDR

and most importantly manual trans? all this hyperbole is a bit silly. its a great car but nothing new from a driving perspective. to bring up something like your dads mg and not mention a miata seems crazy. that car has always been there. im glad the frs is around and its almost unreasonably focused for coming off the showroom floor but still...

"not mention a Miata"? Did you even read his piece?

Funny I read almost the exact same sentiment while looking for info on the new Miata.

OP has made a great point...for everyday thrills, lightweight zippy cars are king (hence happy kids driving modded Civics); not bloated fuel sucking hulking cars that will be lucky to ever see the potential of their 500+ HP. Think soap box derby cars (do kids still do that anymore??) the ones everyone gets excited about have curvature, and steering, while the big boxy boring one that rolls fast and hits the finish line first SHOULD be the one everyone cares about, but yet the steering wheel is just for looks. True enthusiasts appreciate every car they've ever owned and hope to own. The people that come on here to bash their own car, aren't enthusiasts. I may wish the BRZ had a few more HP (via an oem tune/turbo preferably) but it doesn't make me think this car is any less "fancy" and the perfection of its balance is impossible to shake in a corner. I chose it to nudge me toward a Porsche and I look forward to all the subtle comparisons I'm going to make someday when I finally buy one.

Originally Posted by FRSupra http://www.ft86club.com/forums/third...s/viewpost.gif
"I'd like to go back a little, to the late 80's. This is when what I believe was the golden age of automotive achievement."

I'm with you 101%, except for the above quote. Sure, the NSX was (and still is) a great car. But it hardly typifies the industry in the late '80s. The 959 was developed in 1981 on a platform designed in 1964 - evolution, not revolution, and hardly innovative. The Mustang grew a good 5L engine, but despite roller rockers they went back to a carburetor for the 85+ GT. And the electronics were so problematic they had to extend the warranty on the EEC. The coolest thing about that car was the stainless steel exhaust system that sounded like the '50s, not the future.

I think today is the golden age of automotive achievement, at least until tomorrow. Our daily drivers are incredibly reliable despite making 100 hp / liter, and most new cars today are amazingly sophisticated and fun compared to their recent predecessors. The industry-average JD Power "problems per 100 vehicles" rate for 2012 was 132, down from 151 in 2011. Toyota and Scion were 4th and 5th best with about 1% each against an industry average of 1.32%. And although Scion went up to 1.35% for 2013, it's still great (besting Nissan, Infinity, Kia, Hyundai, Audi and Volvo, for example) - and the industry average fell again to 126. Right through the '90s, the first thing I and many others did when buying a new car was to get a small notebook and pencil for the dashboard box, so I could be sure to write down everything that needed repair or correction before the warranty ran out.

Our 86s do amazing things that couldn't be bought off a dealer's lot only a few years ago. I've been chasing this dream for decades, but it's only now coming true. I bought (new) a 1967 1275 Cooper "S", a '74 Tii, the first GTI (1983) and the first GLI (1984) that came to our local VW dealer, the above-mentioned '85 Mustang GT, a '2000 Z3 coupe, and several other pocket rockets in various sizes and price ranges. Believe me - the latest golden age of automotive achievement is now.

I know the Miata is ranked as a great driving car, but I've never been able to get over how cutesy they look. It just doesn't say sportscar like the 86 does.

great summary and reading OP, i'm glad to be part of this GT86/BRZ history!

There are many other examples but I singled out the car I felt had done it the best. The Miata deserves is accolades. The best selling sports car of all time, Car and Drivers 10 best 14 times. Other vehicles that come to mind are the S2000, MR2, Elise... These cars are all true sports cars, and I would be equally happy with any of them, although I've always been a Toyota fan.

Like I said, some of it was based off my opinion. The golden age of being a time when the Japanese were on top (coming from someone who prefers them ). The devotion to detail was awe inspiring. It didn't just have to work, it had to stay working. And, (this part is important to my point) to have those cars at that time made it even more amazing. For example, in 1991 the NSX:

http://www.classicargarage.nl/common...x_exterior.JPG

While a brand new Ford Taurus (one of the best selling cars in 91) looked like this:

http://www.cartrucksite.com/articles...ord-taurus.jpg

and most of the cars on the road were years old, so most likely you'd see something like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ort_5-Door.jpg

Today, even entry level passenger cars are made to look expensive and sporty. A lot of the technology offered now in even sports car's does nothing more for me, another reason why I like the FR-S's 90's feel interior. It's almost like there is no standard anymore and anything goes. Back then there was discipline and passion, and it was not all about the money.

The problem is that there's too much focus on horsepower these days, thanks to the steady decrease of driving "purists" out there and the resulting increase in huge, overpowered cars on the market that all but drive themselves provided the driver knows how to mash on the gas pedal on a more-or-less straight runway.

Thus, niche cars like the 86 will always face complaints about how its power numbers "don't measure up to modern cars". It's tragic, really.

:word:

Especially commercials about how these FWD family sedans have "the most HP in it's class." Horsepower sells. Murrrica.

Bob Hall, the engineer responsible for the design of the original MX5 Miata is famous (at least among Miataphiles) for this quote:

"If you can't go fast with 90 HP, then 900 won't help you!"

As Hall himself once explained, “If you can’t go fast on 90 horsepower, 900 horsepower probably won’t help you.” - See more at: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/t....xEIKTFkC.dpuf

As Hall himself once explained, “If you can’t go fast on 90 horsepower, 900 horsepower probably won’t help you.” - See more at: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/t....xEIKTFkC.dpuf

Every time I drive mine I am reminded I don't need a ten second street car to put a smile on my face

We've been with them a looong time. My wife's first car was a brand new '68 Corona coupe that her father got her over her objections when she was in college (she wanted a Cutlass). One of her father's closest friends owned a body shop in West Philly and saw a future in Toyota, so he became the first dealer in the area. I bought my FR-S from the same dealership, now operated by his son, daughter and grandkids.

Here's where you need a few more miles on your own odometer to appreciate the context. It's not a '90s feel - my first thought on getting in my FR-S was how much it feels like my 356 Porsches (I've had 6). The firm but comfortable seats, the back-from-the-wheel position with arms comfortably out, the taught suspension, quick steering and firm responsive brakes are all reminiscent of the best sports cars of the '50s and early '60s. Alfa Giulia Sprint 1600s felt like this too.

And just like those cars, ours are not for everybody. Many (most?) people couldn't understand why anyone would pay the asking price for a 60 hp Porsche when you could get a 200+ hp American car for less. But if you could appreciate the balance, the connection between the driver and the road, the simple and direct feel of it as an extension of your own senses and muscles, you didn't have to ask. We struggling students bought them used (in some cases, like my blue-and-rust '57 Normal coupe, very used) - and they were wonderful.

The FR-S / BRZ gives me the same feeling - it's old, yet it's ageless.

WOAH.

Who dissed the First Gen Ford Taurus?

The SHO model had a manual transmission by Mazda and one of the greatest V6's ever made, Yamaha made it!

http://static.cargurus.com/images/si...pic-10306.jpeg

They're a great bargain, you can pick one for dirt cheap.

The NSX comparison is pretty odd, considering its price, performance, and, most of all, the fact that it was a mid-engined car! Far different than an FR car.

God I'd still love an NSX. The greatest Japanese car ever built IMO.

Even good enough for Harvey "The Wolf" Keitel.

Coming from quite a few different cars with much more power, both Japanese and American, I can say that I haven't ever really experienced a car like this before.

Though my previous roster hasn't always reflected this, I've always been the type of dude who is more interested in what the car really 'IS' underneath. Why was it made? What went into designing it? What was it really intended to do?

In the age of 'power and speed rules all' that we are in right now, it seems to be pretty bold of Toyota and Subaru to do this joint venture and be completely confident that they made the right decision with the power output.

I cant say that I don't look at JR Supercharger kits everyday wanting more power, but the manufactures confidence gives me confidence that this car was purpose built, and reminds me how fantastic the car is just the way it is now.

Much like the Miata, this car is NOT for everyone, but for those who seem to 'get' it, this might be the best car in the world.

I think the NSX is the greatest super-car, ever. (I believe this sentiment is also shared by Gordon Murray, the designer of Maclaren F1.)

As for the Toybaru, I am thankful that Toyota and Subaru pulled off the most improbable feat, in restoring fun and excitement for real drivers with shallow pockets. The FT86 is a great track car that is also driveable on the road for the mass.

While the design is ingenious, the implementation falls flat. The FT86 feels like it is assembled by FIAT using Chinese fake parts. The real price of FT86 is actually US$30,000 for the car, less US$4,000 rebate to the buyer for participating in the testing programme of its Beta pre-production version, = US$26,000.

Some people bemoan the lack of technical improvement with 2015 model - (new dampers, bolts, and a shark-fin antenna). I suspect most of the improvement lies under the skin to lift the general quality standard up to the original design specification.

In another words, the real production run at the Gunma Main Plant only commences in May 2015.

I have a friend who's dad still owns the Mazda RX-4 he bought new 40 years ago in 1975.

I'd love to have my GT86 sitting in my garage 40 years from now. Though it might have been converted to an alternate fuel technology by then with the way things look right now.

Haven't they already made over a hundred thousand cars there? That sure seems like a real production run to me...

I was a member of CLUBRSX for several years and GOLFMKV for a few years after that. I can honestly say I've never seen so many people gripe and complain about their own cars. This forum is riddled with threads on what changes should be made to the car, what ppl don't like about the car, this car isn't fast enough, etc, etc... I just don't get it... The twins are amazing. Striking good looks, excellent handling, low center of gravity, near 50/50 weight distribution, surprisingly compliant ride, lightweight, 200 HP NA boxer engine, stock shift light, rev matching, RWD, LSD, super comfy sport seats AND "room" for 4 passengers. At ~$25K, what more do you expect??? I'm glad to see that there are ppl in this thread that feel the same as I. I think if this car was released in 2005-2007, people would feel differently. As others have mentioned, this horsepower war the last few years that auto makers are having is just killing it for cars like the twins. Shame

Yep, I agree 100% :thumbup:
Except I went FI, but I loved my car when it was NA too.

I'd like to add to your list that it's an amazing track day car too.
I've owned 40+ cars over the years, many of them sporty high performance cars, and none have put as big a smile on my face as my 86. :party0030:

Interesting narrow minded comment - surprised you receive that many 'thanks'. How is that a problem with the world to want more? We wouldn't be where we are at today if we didn't want more. Hence the birth (re-birth) of the 86. So in essence you make absolutely no sense when you call it a "problem". The real problem is when people claim that it is a problem to want more, when indeed it is not and never will be.

BOOM.

You must not have been a member for very long :bellyroll::bellyroll:

2001-2007. Long enough.

To be fair, in one sentence you've mentioned the ONLY two things that made this car stand out: it's Yamaha developed engine and the fact that it had a manual transmission. Back in the late 80s, having a quick revving, 24V DOHC power plant and manual transmission in a domestic sedan made this car special. It's build quality, F/R balance, dull steering feel, mediocre suspension, average brakes, and hopeless torque steer made it anything but.

See, what you're referring to is innovation.
What im referring to is laziness.

Many people want this engine to be turboed, supercharged, etc, out from the factory. I believe the designer of this car (I believe his name is Tada) just wanted it to be a perfectly balanced platform (stock) and let us modify it the way we want. This way it gives every owner a sense of unique-ness while at the same time being a driver's car that is purchaseable like the 80s-90s era.

boom.

The original post was very well written, perhaps the first on this subject that accurately captures the essence of this car which is a great driver's car straight from the factory. Also glad to see that the typical civil war didn't start between the "modders" and the "stockers". IMHO this car offers a lot for either as it retains it's basic character even when modified to reach a higher performance envelope.

Refreshing read without the typical torque dip bashing or dissing the driving skills of anyone wanting to modify the car from stock.

Still a great little car, sure it was no M3, there's a reason why they're so cheap. They're fun and good little hooligan machines. Easy to work on as well. That Mazda transmission was smooth as well, that's a stand out point. When Mazda made a transmission for you, it was fucking good.

People could say the same thing about the FRS.

Slow, horrible paint, bad quality, horrible rear suspension. List goes on.


You're really going to complain about a $2000 car?

I honestly think most enthusiasts these days just want torque for A-to-B driving and a nice interior. They might be drawn to the Twins for their looks and even enjoy the subjective things that make it great (feedback, balance, etc.), but inevitably, they will want torque and a nice interior. And that's because the majority of driving is A-to-B, where torque and a nice interior go a long way.

:D No. But let's be fair, within the context of your first post, you're lumping a low volume, special edition of the Taurus along with every other Taurus made. Aside from the engine, which I agree was impressive (for the day) and a slightly stiffer suspension, it was still just a Taurus. Besides, it wasn't $2000 when it was sold, new. Adjusted for inflation it was just under $40K in 2014 dollars when it was new. And it had one glaring flaw (aside from being a Taurus). It was FWD. Although that's a subjective point. :thumbsup: