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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
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-   -   How to achieve -2.0 front Camber with stock suspension (if possible)? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61810)

glamcem 03-27-2014 08:14 PM
How to achieve -2.0 front Camber with stock suspension (if possible)?
 
I just wanted to see if there is a way to achieve -2.0 front and similar rear camber with stock suspension. I've searched and many people claim that the camber bolts help that as well as the camber plates and/or aftermarket control arms but I would rather not to use anything besides the camber bolts.

What kind of camber bolts did you end up using with the stock setup and how much of camber you gained?

I think the best route would be coilover and lower ride height to do that but I just want to be able to use my R compound tires (235/40/17 Nitto Nt01s with Enkei RPF1 17x9 +35mm wheels) with stock suspension for now to and upgrade it gradually.

Thanks in advance

cnk 03-27-2014 09:35 PM
Maybe lowering springs and camber bolts? Then save up for coilovers if that's what you want.

ayau 03-27-2014 09:48 PM
Impossible to gain -2 at the front with just bolts. Lowering springs won't work either because the front doesn't gain camber under compression. Max camber I've seen with just bolts is -1.5. You could slot the strut, which would give you more camber.

glamcem 03-27-2014 10:03 PM
What kind of camber bolts can I use on this car?
Any bolt is required for the rears?

Thanks

DarkSunrise 03-27-2014 10:18 PM
It seems that most people get about -1.3 with just one set of camber bolts. Not sure how far a second set of bolts will take you, but I doubt it'll get you to -2.0.

Edmunds got -2.0 max on stock suspension using HVT camber plates, so that might be the route to go if that's your target.

http://www.edmunds.com/scion/fr-s/20...er-plates.html

Lone Starr 03-27-2014 10:32 PM
I've been searching this topic myself for a few days now and came across this thread:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44660

Looks like running camber bolts on both the top and bottom can get you the camber you're looking for.

ayau 03-28-2014 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1631433)
What kind of camber bolts can I use on this car?
Any bolt is required for the rears?

Thanks
I use the OEM crash bolts. I just prefer OEM. Some people use SPC bolts, and I believe they can get maybe a tenth more.

No bolts for the rear. You'll need adjustable lower control arm or upper control arm bushings to get rear camber. You could also lower the ride height to gain negative at the rear.

Turdinator 03-28-2014 01:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1631181)
I just wanted to see if there is a way to achieve -2.0 front and similar rear camber with stock suspension. I've searched and many people claim that the camber bolts help that as well as the camber plates and/or aftermarket control arms but I would rather not to use anything besides the camber bolts.

What kind of camber bolts did you end up using with the stock setup and how much of camber you gained?

I think the best route would be coilover and lower ride height to do that but I just want to be able to use my R compound tires (235/40/17 Nitto Nt01s with Enkei RPF1 17x9 +35mm wheels) with stock suspension for now to and upgrade it gradually.

Thanks in advance
I would have thought top and bottom camber bolts would get you there. But you will get better answers in the CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything! thread.

Also I am 90% sure the front struts do gain camber as they compress or are lowered.

ayau 03-28-2014 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turdinator (Post 1631780)
I would have thought top and bottom camber bolts would get you there. But you will get better answers in the CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything! thread.

Also I am 90% sure the front struts do gain camber as they compress or are lowered.
It's very little if it does. Plus, you don't want to lower the car too much on OEM dampers or you'll run out of shock travel and/or ruin the suspension geometry.

Increasing positive caster will also increase negative camber when the wheel is turned. There's no factory caster adjustment, but I thought it's worth mentioning.

glamcem 03-28-2014 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau (Post 1631720)
I use the OEM crash bolts. I just prefer OEM. Some people use SPC bolts, and I believe they can get maybe a tenth more.

No bolts for the rear. You'll need adjustable lower control arm or upper control arm bushings to get rear camber. You could also lower the ride height to gain negative at the rear.
Do you have a part number or any link ?
Thanks again

glamcem 03-28-2014 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 1631460)
It seems that most people get about -1.3 with just one set of camber bolts. Not sure how far a second set of bolts will take you, but I doubt it'll get you to -2.0.

Edmunds got -2.0 max on stock suspension using HVT camber plates, so that might be the route to go if that's your target.

http://www.edmunds.com/scion/fr-s/20...er-plates.html
Thanks but like I said I'd much rather use camber bolts or go with an affordable coilovers instead of camber platers due to NVH :)

solidONE 03-28-2014 01:51 AM
I can confirm for certain that -2.0 front camber is achievable with doubled up SPC camber bolts. Although every car will be different, also might be different side to side. It's probably more like -1.9* camber (+- .2*) You'll likely get more if you just slotted your mounting holes tho... but I have no experience with slotting the holes.

And yes you do gain a tiny bit of camber lowering the front end. I can confirm that certainly as well.

ayau 03-28-2014 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1631843)
Do you have a part number or any link ?
Thanks again
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...11&postcount=1

Wepeel 03-28-2014 02:11 PM
I bet you could get -2 up front (and possibly more) by doubling up on the OEM available crash bolt. Someone else with a more structural background would have to comment on how advisable that is.

But I'd feel better with the OEM crash bolt vs. aftermarket - the threaded portion is still the same dia/pitch and the torque/clamping force is still the same as stock. The aftermarket ones (at least the SPC) are narrower and have a lower torque spec.

glamcem 03-28-2014 02:54 PM
Thanks everyone :)

celica73 03-28-2014 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wepeel (Post 1632787)
I bet you could get -2 up front (and possibly more) by doubling up on the OEM available crash bolt. Someone else with a more structural background would have to comment on how advisable that is.

But I'd feel better with the OEM crash bolt vs. aftermarket - the threaded portion is still the same dia/pitch and the torque/clamping force is still the same as stock. The aftermarket ones (at least the SPC) are narrower and have a lower torque spec.
Can't double up the OEM crash bolts. I've got the OEM bolts (top hole) and some SPC bolts in the bottom hole to give about -2.3 degrees of camber at stock ride height.

Wepeel 03-28-2014 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by celica73 (Post 1632928)
Can't double up the OEM crash bolts. I've got the OEM bolts (top hole) and some SPC bolts in the bottom hole to give about -2.3 degrees of camber at stock ride height.
Ah, thanks, good to know. What is the reason?

ayau 03-28-2014 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wepeel (Post 1632945)
Ah, thanks, good to know. What is the reason?
The bottom bolt IS the crash bolt. In other words, you're using the same bolt (same part #) for the top and bottom of the strut. The reason you're able to gain negative camber is because the top slot has a slightly bigger hole, so there's a little bit of wiggle room for you to push the rotor in.

See video below.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkq9dHiqWBY"]Scion FR-S BRZ Camber Crash Bolt Install DIY - YouTube[/ame]

was385 03-28-2014 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1631181)
I just wanted to see if there is a way to achieve -2.0 front and similar rear camber with stock suspension. I've searched and many people claim that the camber bolts help that as well as the camber plates and/or aftermarket control arms but I would rather not to use anything besides the camber bolts.

What kind of camber bolts did you end up using with the stock setup and how much of camber you gained?

I think the best route would be coilover and lower ride height to do that but I just want to be able to use my R compound tires (235/40/17 Nitto Nt01s with Enkei RPF1 17x9 +35mm wheels) with stock suspension for now to and upgrade it gradually.

Thanks in advance
Let's start with the rear... no, there is no way to get -2 degrees rear camber with just bolts on stock suspension because you can't use bolts for the back. The options for camber in the rear are bushings (pain to install and adjust), LCAs, or lower the car.

As far as the front, as many others have said, you're not going to get -2 out of just bolts. I think I got about -1.3 from mine. Slotting the struts could get you some more, though I know that a lot of people don't want to do that.

glamcem 03-28-2014 04:04 PM
It looks like the coilovers will be necessary to go over -2 neg camber. For those of who invested for the coilovers, what is your experience with them? What brand, drop and tire/wheel combo did you pick?

was385 03-28-2014 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1633079)
It looks like the coilovers will be necessary to go over -2 neg camber. For those of who invested for the coilovers, what is your experience with them? What brand, drop and tire/wheel combo did you pick?
There are tons of threads in this section that cover that.

glamcem 03-28-2014 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by was385 (Post 1633213)
There are tons of threads in this section that cover that.
Yes, and I read so many of them. I was just asking your input to gather more and more data :)

Thanks again

solidONE 03-28-2014 05:11 PM
Lowering the car about an inch will get you .5* in the front and an additional 1* in the rear for something more than -2* rear camber.

Doubled up on the camber bolts with 1" drop will get you about -2.5*/-2.0* f/r or more.

Also, you CAN run camber bolts in the rear. Ask me how I know this.....

wheelhaus 03-28-2014 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1633079)
It looks like the coilovers will be necessary to go over -2 neg camber. For those of who invested for the coilovers, what is your experience with them? What brand, drop and tire/wheel combo did you pick?
I thought camber plates could also help reach beyond -2°?

Granted, many coilovers include adjustable camber plates, but some are designed to work with OEM struts.

leicaboss 03-28-2014 05:15 PM
FYI, I bought SPC camber bolts thinking I could achieve the advertised -1.75 camber.

Instead I was maxed out on -0.3 on the driver side, meaning I had to do the same on the passenger side to stay even. I'm lowered on Swift BRZ springs, stock struts, and only one set of those bolts.

solidONE 03-28-2014 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leicaboss (Post 1633243)
FYI, I bought SPC camber bolts thinking I could achieve the advertised -1.75 camber.

Instead I was maxed out on -0.3 on the driver side, meaning I had to do the same on the passenger side to stay even. I'm lowered on Swift BRZ springs, stock struts, and only one set of those bolts.
I think you might have installed it incorrectly... Lowering 1" alone will get you more than -0.3* without camber bolts. Unless you alignment was seriously off from the factory

glamcem 03-30-2014 08:20 PM
Ok , so as I understand I can use OEM camber bolts for upper hole and SPC camber bolt for the bottom so that should get me ~-2.0 negative camber for front. What kind of camber adjustment and number I can get for the rear @solidONE?

Thanks again :)

glamcem 03-30-2014 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidONE (Post 1633233)
Lowering the car about an inch will get you .5* in the front and an additional 1* in the rear for something more than -2* rear camber.

Doubled up on the camber bolts with 1" drop will get you about -2.5*/-2.0* f/r or more.

Also, you CAN run camber bolts in the rear. Ask me how I know this.....
How do you know this ? :bellyroll:

solidONE 03-31-2014 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1637078)
Ok , so as I understand I can use OEM camber bolts for upper hole and SPC camber bolt for the bottom so that should get me ~-2.0 negative camber for front. What kind of camber adjustment and number I can get for the rear @solidONE?

Thanks again :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1637079)
How do you know this ? :bellyroll:
With the OE crash bolt and the SPC lower camber bolt, I doubt you will get -2.0. Maybe -1.8 if you are lucky.

H&R TC112 or TC212. either one will work. The TC112 has a longer cam, so they're presumably stronger. I ordered the TC112 and received one of each in the package... The adjustment range is less than +- 0.5* when mounted on the inner rear lower control arm mount.

finch1750 03-31-2014 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamcem (Post 1637078)
Ok , so as I understand I can use OEM camber bolts for upper hole and SPC camber bolt for the bottom so that should get me ~-2.0 negative camber for front. What kind of camber adjustment and number I can get for the rear @solidONE?

Thanks again :)
Im installing this setup this weekend and will get an alignment next week I'll will report back what i can get out of it.

Sent from my LT30at using Tapatalk

Krispeee 03-31-2014 07:16 PM
couldn't you run the bottom bolt up top (in place of OEM camber bolt) and run spc camber bolts on the bottom? My fronts are set up this way and it looks like I got some additional negative camber from doing so, but no alignment yet to validate my claims.

solidONE 03-31-2014 10:34 PM
Just a side note on alignment. I just installed a track pipe and my rear toe went from 1/8" toe in to slightly toe out. I went to Sears for a free alignment check to confirm my numbers and my toe changed unexpectedly. Only thing I did was remover the factory muffler and install a track pipe I just fabbed up. Also my front toe went from slightly toe out to slightly toe in when they redid the alignment check after I got out of the car.

Lesson: Do your alignment fully weighted(or unweighted) to get accurate 'fight' alignment numbers.

Also my rear camber is lopsided.

solidONE 03-31-2014 10:38 PM
Friggin eh man... Got to redo my alignment with my spare and jack out the trunk and a 150lbs ballast on the seat.

Wepeel 03-31-2014 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidONE (Post 1639951)
Just a side note on alignment. I just installed a track pipe and my rear toe went from 1/8" toe in to slightly toe out. I went to Sears for a free alignment check to confirm my numbers and my toe changed unexpectedly. Only thing I did was remover the factory muffler and install a track pipe I just fabbed up. Also my front toe went from slightly toe out to slightly toe in when they redid the alignment check after I got out of the car.

Lesson: Do your alignment fully weighted(or unweighted) to get accurate 'fight' alignment numbers.

Also my rear camber is lopsided.
Hmm.. that sounds peculiar - I wouldn't think a net ~25 lb reduction in the rear would change rear toe that much. The difference between a full tank and the fuel light on is probably a 70 lb swing. How did you verify?

(I've always wondered about laser alignment racks - I get they are accurate but it's completely dependent on the operator. I've talked to people who have done the alignment, removed the wheel laser bracket thingies, put them back on, and it read quite differently)

solidONE 04-01-2014 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wepeel (Post 1640135)
Hmm.. that sounds peculiar - I wouldn't think a net ~25 lb reduction in the rear would change rear toe that much. The difference between a full tank and the fuel light on is probably a 70 lb swing. How did you verify?

(I've always wondered about laser alignment racks - I get they are accurate but it's completely dependent on the operator. I've talked to people who have done the alignment, removed the wheel laser bracket thingies, put them back on, and it read quite differently)
Verified by Sears laser alignment. Maybe you're right. I will try to take it to another sears before I make any changes and get another alignment check.

My front toe was at 0 when I manually checked it without ballast. Rear camber was lop sided about the same amount every time. I did that purposely because I did not want to give up any negative camber just to even it out. There is a 0.5* difference left to right from the factory.

solidONE 04-01-2014 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krispeee (Post 1639523)
couldn't you run the bottom bolt up top (in place of OEM camber bolt) and run spc camber bolts on the bottom? My fronts are set up this way and it looks like I got some additional negative camber from doing so, but no alignment yet to validate my claims.
Exactamundo! The OE 'crash bolt' is simply the OE bottom bolt. so just buy the SPC camber bolt to replace the lower one and save some cashish. :slap:

finch1750 04-01-2014 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krispeee (Post 1639523)
couldn't you run the bottom bolt up top (in place of OEM camber bolt) and run spc camber bolts on the bottom? My fronts are set up this way and it looks like I got some additional negative camber from doing so, but no alignment yet to validate my claims.
I must have heard you talking about it at a meet and thats where I got the idea, cuz thats what I did. Lol

Sent from my LT30at using Tapatalk

glamcem 04-01-2014 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidONE (Post 1640301)
Verified by Sears laser alignment. Maybe you're right. I will try to take it to another sears before I make any changes and get another alignment check.

My front toe was at 0 when I manually checked it without ballast. Rear camber was lop sided about the same amount every time. I did that purposely because I did not want to give up any negative camber just to even it out. There is a 0.5* difference left to right from the factory.

FYI, I've had so many bad experiences with Sears alignment and so-called professional Corvette shops (was going sideways at drag strip once because of the incorrect toe!!) Then I started using a Firestone shop.. I would highly advise you to make a friend there ;)

BTW, I have ordered my FA 500 series coilovers with Swift spring (9k/9k), radial bearing and extenders upgrades so hopefully passing -2.5_-3 camber won't be a problem once I install them :)

acx23 04-01-2014 04:26 AM
If the top of the camber bolt (the dial part) isn't facing/pointing toward the front of the car, then it's on backwards.
For your reference, I'm on stock springs/height with proper camber bolts on the bottom strut slot, and I got -1.2* out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leicaboss (Post 1633243)
FYI, I bought SPC camber bolts thinking I could achieve the advertised -1.75 camber.

Instead I was maxed out on -0.3 on the driver side, meaning I had to do the same on the passenger side to stay even. I'm lowered on Swift BRZ springs, stock struts, and only one set of those bolts.

sshole 04-01-2014 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayau (Post 1632960)
The bottom bolt IS the crash bolt.
http://replygif.net/thumbnail/537.gif
:confused0068:

I didn't know that. Looks like I need to make an appointment with my alignment guy.


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