Negotiating a Pre-Order
 

Hi Everyone,

First off I'd just like to say how happy I am to be apart of this forum, and how happy that I am to be finally getting my 2013 Scion FR-S after two years of research and hard work to save up for a down payment on the car.

I'm posing this question to all of you, because this is my first time buying a car from a dealership and i don't want to fudge the deal up. I'll start off with a brief history of my journey before getting to the question...

So for the past several months, my intention of owing an FR-S has significantly increased which has led me to begin looking on classifieds such as Canadian Black Book, Auto Trader, Kijiji etc. for a used FR-S (would much rather buy used and save a few thousand dollars), in addition to looking at dealer inventories to see who has what on their lot. After much deliberation, I decided to just seek out the car through my local Toyota dealership, and have them find me a used FR-S as I feel I would receive much better service should the car ever need repairing from the dealer, if I bought the car from them.

For the past several months, I've spoken to a specific sales guy at my local Toyota dealership and let him know what I was looking for and if they could bring my car in. To much delight I found out it was possible. So last week I finally gave the green light to go ahead and begin looking for an FR-S that fits what I wanted and the next day, he called me and told me they had found one near Toronto and were willing to have it shipped up to the dealership ( I might add I'm from Northern Ontario). Now initially I had told him that I was looking for a car in the 23k-25k range so I was a bit surprised when he told me the dealer could get the car for 27.5k delivered, but I didn't say too much because I wanted them to get the car here first so I said go ahead and get it here.

The same day, I also went into the dealership and made a $1,000 deposit on the car (obviously so they know I'm serious) and I also went over the financing with one of the Finance Managers. So with this I indicated how much I wanted to put down ($10,000), my salary, etc. and they told me I was approved at a 4.99% rate at $300/month for the car(now keep in mind the price of the car has not changed at this point, they still are asking 27.5k) after a signed some paperwork so they could run my credit score.

So here's my question, given everything that i have already done, do you believe it is still possible to negotiate the price of the car? I have yet to see it here, it should be here in a week or 2, and have yet to test drive it, look it over etc. so I believe that I should still be able to negotiate the price for 1) if I don't like certain things about the vehicle and 2) because I had indicated that I wanted this car for a specific price.

**It is important to note that I did my homework on this car, and I know which dealership it came from, how much THAT dealership was asking for it (25.9k) and that the car was a trade-in and only had one owner...the car also has 13,000 km on it. I also found out the wholesale value of this car is around $20,000, but I also found out that the wholesale price of a brand new 2014 FR-S is the same price that the dealer is wanting to sell the 2013 to me for (27.5k).........hopefully all of this gives me a bit of ammunition when it comes down to negotiation (if this is possible)**

I don't want to get ripped off on this car as it is my first car purchase, in addition to the fact I am only 24 years old (25 later this year) so I don't want to be taken advantage of the fact I am young, and want this sports car.

I appreciate any help on this, to ensure my purchase goes as smoothly and as cheaply as possible, and I hope I have included any relevant info; I'll be sure to include anything i have missed. Thanks everyone!

If you're buying a new FR-S, (which I assume so due to the price of the car), there is no negotiation on the vehicle. Scion has a "pure price" policy where the customer pays what they see on the sticker.

They're marked to where it's a fair price for the customer, and to where the dealer can make a little bit of money (to put it in perspective for you, I've sold 2 TC's, and they only had about 1,100 dollars in markup), so we don't make a lot of money on them at all.

If you think you would feel better about the situation by negotiating, you can negotiate with a Subaru dealer on a BRZ.

Now I noticed in your statement "4.99 rate" and noticed they haven't ran your credit score yet. They're just using this as the "average credit" rate (we do this too when we haven't pulled credit). If you're a 700+ beacon, THIS is what I would negotiate for, a better rate. Don't let them hold you to that rate if this is the case. If you've graduated college within the past 2 years or looking to graduate in the next 6 months, you can also receive a $750 college grad rebate, along with special financing (as long as you have a job and there's no derogatory marks on your credit). Other than that, they really can't discount the vehicle for you.

I hope this helps! (:

(I work for a Toyota/Scion dealership in Virginia).

Thanks for the info. However I'm not looking at new as of yet; I would prefer to get used and the vehicle that the dealership is bringing in for me is a used 2013 FRS. I made the comparison that the price for the FRS they are bringing in is similar to the price of a brand new 2014 so Im hoping they would come down on the price of the used 2013 because of that but as you pointed out not sure if this could be used because of the pure price policy.

In terms of the credit score, I'm pretty sure they have already ran it as I did have to sign off on them running my credit score. I know I have really good credit (800+) so I'm assuming the 4.99% is a decent rate, although perhaps in addition to the total price of the car this could be negotiated also?

If it's used, it can definitely be negotiated. With a price of 27,500, that sounds quite a bit inflated to me. To put it in perspective, my Whiteout FR-S (Which adds $395 for the special color) and a few other add ons totaled up on the sticker at almost 26k even. Unless they're getting you a 10 series in, that price is high.

Also when you buy a new Scion, you get the Scion service boost (Toyota Care in other words). For the first 2 years or 25k miles, all your routine maintenance is free. Oil changes, tire rotations, fluid fill ups etc, plus you get complimentary road side assistance.

If you're definitely going for the used one, check for a fair price on KBB (they are by far the most accurate), and negotiate from there. What is the length of the term you are financing for? 4.99% is still high even if you went 72 months if you're a 800+. Since this car has only been out for a short time, this used one couldn't have a ton of miles on it (the year of the vehicle + the miles on it will determine your rate along with your credit).

Please don't pay that much for a used FR-S. You can buy one close to that price new, with a lower APR. Also, if you have 800+ credit score, 4.99% is not a good rate. Shop around...seriously.

The 27.5k is a bit high IMO so I do feel they are trying to take advantage of my age in some sense to earn a decent $ off me. It's not a 10 series either. But my concern is that because I have already put a deposit down on the car, and have sat down with the finance manager that I may not have any wiggle room to negotiate a fairer price for the car (I think the max I'd pay is 25k).

The term of financing was either 72 or 84 months; one or the other so you believe that they should be able to come down on the 4.99%?

Also the car has 13,000 km on it or roughly 8,000 miles

Exactly! which is where my concern lays in terms of the price.... also with the financing I don't really have many other choices (I don't think) because my bank is only willing to do 9% and then I have the dealer which is offering 4.99 but I suppose that can be negotiated..where else could I go that would offer a competitive finance rate?

Did you sign the bill of sale?? If you did, look at the terms and conditions on the back. Usually you can walk away at any point before taking delivery of the car. Now depending on the terms (and whether the dealer is an a-hole or not), you should get your deposit back.

It's a used car that you haven't even seen or driven. I would have been a little more cautious from the beginning before signing anything.

That term is more believable if you're stretching it out to 84 months. Even if it was a new car with good credit, a bank never likes to stretch out a loan that far, hence a higher rate.

Now you can always pay the loan off early (it's all simple interest now, so there's no penalty for this anymore). My strong suggestion is to go with 60 months, especially if you have 10k to put down.

Even if this FR-S has a lot of add ons from the factory, I still wouldn't pay 25k on the vehicle price. You can buy one with no options at all for around that.

There is something not adding up here. Do you have a job? Are you making minimum wage? Because no bank (especially in Canada) is going to only offer 9% if you have a decent paying job and a 800+ credit score.

^this. If your income is not very high, ex. $1500 a month, even with good credit you will not receive the best rate.

Without all the details it is difficult to know your situation and many of us are in the USA so things may be a little different in Canada. Consider these facts from your posts:

$27.5K Out the door cost
$10K Down Payment
4.99% interest rate
This calculates to $281.75/month for 72 months (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/financ....jsp?mode=full)

So back to your question...."Can I still negotiate the price of the car?"

It will depend on the terms of the contract you signed and the laws where you live. Your worst case is you overpay for the car or give up your $1K deposit. Your best case is you negotiate a better price or get your $1K back.

Regarding the car price. WHERE I LIVE, The $27.5K price would be far too high. The value of that car in USD is more like $23K out the door.

Finally, never forget that you are buying a car, not a loan, not an interest rate, but a car. Never get deceived by looking for someone willing to give you a monthly payment number that makes you happy because you are then guaranteed to overpay. Good Luck.

"Pure Price" ? no way. Last August I bought a 2013
Whiteout with TRD Exhaust, Spoiler and trunk mat.
MSRP = $27069
Got it for $24499.

Perhaps things are different in Canada.

http://www.scion.com/buy/pure_price/

Yes.

The only way a Scion can be discounted is if there is something wrong with it (lot damage), or the vehicle has been on the lot for too long. The vehicle has to be advertised at the discounted amount in the showroom, online, and on the vehicle too, not including it takes an Act of Congress to get the approval to do so.

Edit: It may be different for some regions. As far as the Central Atlantic Region is concerned, this is the case. You can have a vehicle priced at 25k, drive 400 miles to another dealership, and a similiarly equipped vehicle will be the exact same price.

I have 2 jobs and I earn minimum $2300/month

I signed some paperwork for the dealer to run a cedit check on me, not a bill of sale; i sure hope it wasn't a bill of sale because then they would have lied to me in terms of what I was signing

Car dealers would never deceive the customer nor lie to them. It just would not be ethical....lol

Is the quoted $27,500 including tax(remember its 13% with HST) and all ancillary fees? If so, then at least that's a decent enough discount if the mileage is low. A new 2014 including freight/PDI, taxes, dealer fees, etc. is roughly $31,000. Each dealer should print out a sort of invoice detailing all the fees they're charging you, this is where you do have a lot more room to negotiate including getting rid of the global-i charge($400), anything that looks remotely suspicious? Question it with extreme prejudice. As for negotiating the price of the car, I don't recall if Scion's pure pricing affects a used one, it doesn't hurt to try though.

Sorry I can't help you on the financing question, as this is not the route I took.

The details Jegan provided are some of the missing pieces. 13% tax WOW!

Man try a credit union I got mine at 1.75 interets and I made 2000 a month now I am paying 225 for a new one keep in mind my ort was 27,000 hope this help you good luck

it was 27,500 plus tax sorry

If all my customers were as generous as you are I'd have two Audi R8's instead of just one. You have been taken advantage of and should not walk but RUN away from that deal as fast as you can.

I do agree, but not sure if I want to just up and walk away from the deal before trying to negotiate a lower price. Correct me if Im wrong, but I think 24-25k (before taxes) would be a fair price to pay for this veh as the price would include delivery as well and the veh has only 13,000 km on it.

All in all, this vehicle is being delivered from a dealer near Toronto, if I can't negotiate a better price, Ill just drive down to Southern Ontario and find a dealer willing to give me a better deal for a car.

I agree with the above posters, this is a bullshit deal in Canada. Have you been on the Canadian website?? The rates for a new 2014 top out at 3.99% for 72/84 month financing!

And at 27k you should get a new 2014 at a lower interest rate. If it's your age or income making you get the higher rates, get a parent to cosign which will get you at least the advertised rates and not this robbery.

Go new, at that price it's not worth it to get a car that could have been thrashed for several thousand miles

Trust me, just call the million dealers in the GTA and you'll find a better deal.

Pure pricing only applies to a new Scion. A used one can be priced at the dealer's discretion, whether it's a fair price or not.

Live in Canada, got it under MSRP new. Just saying.

As I had stated previously, I think 24k-25k is a fair price for the veh (including delivery of the veh) plus tax

What do all of you think is a fair price for the car? If I can't get this price I'd walk and find another dealer who would negotiate a fairer price with me..

It depends on the options the car has such as Bespoke radio with navigation, rear spoiler, special color, rear bumper applique, etc. Without this information, it's really hard to determine a fair price.

We'll just agree to disagree on the fair price. At the end of the day, it is your money not ours and if you feel it is a decent deal @ 24K - 25K that is all that matters.

I saw the car on Maple Toyota's website and the veh does not have Bespoke, no rear spoiler, the colour is black (Raven), no special bumper applique ETC.

Here's the link to the car itself:

http://www.mapletoyota.com/used/Scio...a058ac3ae3.htm

Not sure why they still have it listed on their website when Maple Toyota confirmed to me it was sold but anyways that's the car ^^^

There is no Bespoke or navigation on '13 model year FR-S's and there are no special colors either. It could have a spoiler and the upgraded touch screen radio, but that's about it.

But you are right, it is hard to know what a fair price is without knowing more details (is it manual or auto, any extended warranty, etc.).

Even at $24 I think that's way too high considering a new '14 is $26,450. A year newer, your choice in color, no mileage, seemingly lower rates than what you are being quoted.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

I really hope you can get out of this deal, that's all I will say. Brutal.

You might be right about the navi only being available in the 14's, but the touch screen is the Bespoke system. You can option out a FR-S almost any way you want. Just check out scion.com, build a FR-S and you'll see what I mean.

The Whiteout FR-S is considered a special color option at $395 dollars. It's just a different name for Toyota's Blizzard Pearl.

Here is what I do not understand. It is $26K + Tax if you go to Maple but $27.5K + Tax from your dealer. So you paid them $1,500.00 to get it for you? They are probably driving it to you and flying back.

That's if they even paid what Maple wanted for the veh...I priced out shipping costs and the companies that did quote me wanted $800-900 for shipping the veh from dealer to dealer

This guy is in Canada. BeSpoke was not available in Canada. A similar looking "upgraded" headunit was available in 2013, but it was not BeSpoke.

If you look closely, you will see no BeSpoke branding:


http://s3.amazonaws.com/scion.site.p...06192012010318


vs


http://www.labadieauto.com/blog/wp-c...tc-bespoke.jpg

On a one year old car, unless the odometer reads from 0 to possibly 1600 km then $25K is not a good deal, $24K maybe if its so low and its a AT if that's what you want. A brand new 2014 MT with its MSRP is $26,450, the AT is $27,630. The limited Monograms start at about $28,800 for the MT to I think about $30,000 for the AT. A standard freight delivery charge for a new car is $1495. Armed with that info, at that point its up to you to decide.

Personally given the original $27K price I'd say its a bad deal. You only pay a bit more to get a brand new one that nobody's owned, exactly to the spec you wanted. When the difference is so small, I always go new > used, the used choice is only good if the discount is great enough to offset the advantages of a new car.

I don't know if being in Northern Ontario makes it easier for them to up the price like that, simply because there isn't a lot of competition.

That being said, it's still a pretty bad deal. Sign the papers and all - and make sure you get a new FR-S for that price, or lower.

Edit: I didn't see that it was an automatic. Might not be that bad of a deal, then. I'd still try to get a new one for that price!

Edit again:
Look at this one, for a price reference
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60442