Suggestion for brake pads and fluid
 

I'm thinking of upgrading my brake pad and brake fluid since I felt a little brake fade almost the end of my track day.
Does anyone have any suggestion?
My car is currently bone stock.

I'm using Motul RBF600 brake fluid. For pads, there are lots of options, check the thread in the racing forum for a variety of opinions.

(FWIW, I'm also utilizing Carbotech XP8s with ducting; with this setup, there was no brake fade of any kind today at Thunderhill.)

Did you change the front only or both front and rear?

I'm running XP8s in both front and rear. I don't daily drive my BRZ, but if you do, keep in mind that the XP8s dust quite a bit. The noise level isn't terribly bad but you will hear them.

Ok. Thank you very much :)

I did my first few track days with just XP8s in front, stock pads in rear. No issues at all felt very good all day. That was on stock tires first 2 track days and then on grippier 140TW tires on 3rd day, very good performance no fade. However I do plan to swap out all 4 brakes to same material next time.

If you don't get a chance to swap your pads or fluid, you can certainly just bleed the brakes at the track. Just bleed the fluid that are in the lines.

I know having to swap pads on the stock calipers can be time consuming if you don't have practice or are not too familiar. Bleeding you could learn and do quickly.

Most of the reviews on XP8s are positive, I might be getting them.
I'll just change all four of them once for all, as well as changing the brake fluid.

I'm thinking to just swap the pads and leave them there, rather than swap before going onto the track.
I don't know if that's a good idea, and might change my mind later on.
Anyway thank you for telling me that, now I can at least do something if for whatever reason I will be using my stock pad on track.
Btw David Ray (The owner of HOD) had coached me for one section yesterday:)

the main concerns of running race pads all the time, will be the noise, dust and potentially accelerated wear of your rotors. just FYI. I've simply learned to live with it.

hm...I can live with the noise
For dust, will it be solved by cleaning it more often?
And for wearing of rotors, will changing rotors help?

If you do almost all street driving, you'll likely get some extra rotor wear. But the bigger factor will be the heat cycles on the track as you get faster. This is when you start seeing discoloration and hairline cracks (I recently replaced my rotors).

I wouldn't worry too much about extra wear with XP8s when driving on the street, it shouldn't be too bad.

I was thinking about the stainless brake upgrade kit with 600 fluid. Comes with slotted rotors, performance pada and stainless lines. $530 at speedfactory86

Just FYI, brake fluid is not an upgrade mod. It either works or it doesn't, there's no variation in capabilities between any hydraulic fluid, unless you happen to be overheating your brakes and boiling the fluid, which is very difficult to do. So, unless you have a very good reason to be removing and spending the trouble to reflush the entire system, I'd recommend leaving it alone.

It's been proven and confirmed by those who go to the track regularly, that the BRZ/FR-S brake system is prone to boiling the brake fluid pretty easily if you are pushing the car hard enough (on track). Will a beginner on their first track day be generally OK? Yes, probably. But even @wilfredwong (the OP) noted that he experienced brake fade by the end of his first track day, hence his starting this thread to ask about brake upgrades.

One driver mentioned he boiled his fluid by the first track day in this thread:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60598


And in this thread, CSG Mike was asked what the top 10 mods were suggested for a car going to the track... his answer in part included what he thought was essential mods, which included brake pads and fluid upgrades:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38926

After hearing/reading about these experiences from others who tracked the car before I did, my very first upgrades to my car were brake pads and fluid. I didn't want to take the "wait until the brakes fade on me and I can't stop, then consider spending money to fix it" approach on the track, I wanted to do it proactively and have it never be an issue. I did so, went to the track and had very good brake performance, and noted how much heat the brakes were generating from the track day so I consider it money well spent.

What kind of experience do you have, and what tracks do you run?

I tracked my car twice, both at Thunderhill.
btw I read your passage quoted by PMok.

We conveniently have a group buy going, if you want to try some hybrid/autox type pads. Alternatively, if you're comfortable swapping pads yourself, use race pads, and swap on your stock pads or street pads for daily driving.

For competition reasons I'd then consider a more major brake upgrade worthwhile including fluids, pads, lines, and if you have the budget, also calipers.

For all the rest of the drivers who will be commuting, autocrossing, and with an "occasional" track day... No. I'd consider all ten best upgrades for a first time track day to be the driver, no contest. In fact, I would suggest that if you are experiencing brake fade, that's something you should learn to deal with on the track, hopefully not something you're going to learn when descending out of the Rocky Mountains, which is again a driver upgrade first.

Here's my list for top 10 upgrades on the track:
Learn,

1. safety
2. braking (learn how and when you lose braking too)
3. turning-in
4. apexing
5. acceleration
6. exiting
7. cooldown
8. parking
9. courtesy
10. camaraderie

Then I'd say once you get those figured out, then start upgrading your car. The benefit is that all those in my list are directly applicable to being safe on our far more dangerous highways as well as being a better person.

After that, I'd do tire pressure, tires, (maybe brake fluid in here if it's failing), dampers, springs, brake pads, (again maybe fluid here).

I'd be more worried that people new to the track can't even correctly identify what happens when your brake fluid boils. Brake "fade" is typically caused by your pads overheating and vaporizing against the rotor causing them to basically do the same thing when your tires hydroplane, where as pedal sponginess is better attributed to fluid failure. The latter (boiling fluid) you identify really fast as the pedal going much closer to the floor, the prior (fade) you experience as a normally solid pedal, but a reduced effect of your normal pedal travel. And I say that hydraulic fluid doesn't usually fail because the boiling point of it increases when it's under pressure, this is why your radiator cap is pressurized, so literally the act of pressing on the pedal improves the performance of your brake fluid.

Still figuring out what's actually happening and learning how to deal with it is a better "mod" than pre-emptively replacing your brake fluid.

I get what you're saying. Driver improvement is always the best and most inexpensive upgrade. But others more experienced than I have recommended more or less that the car stock is great for the track, except for the weaknesses in the brake pads and fluid. And they generally recommended that those are the first, and possibly the only things you need to upgrade before taking the car on track. If there is a known safety issue and a relatively inexpensive fix is available, why not do it proactively? And eliminate that issue from ever coming up. Otherwise you're just deferring something that you will realize that you need by the second or third track day.


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hey i plan to do at least few autox events this year and maybe a track event if money permits. I also DD my car. Do you think the hybrid/autox pads are worth the money/the right upgrade? i'm still running stock tires and probably will be until next year some time. thanks

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. You don't want to experience brake fade entering Turn 2 at Laguna Seca at 115+. You "deal with it" by going straight, into a gravel trap, and getting stuck, losing an expensive session AND having pads that are glazed and/or fluid that is boiled.

Brake pads and fluids are something that should be done for everyone except the absolute novice. Even then, it's better to be prepareed.

Do you have airbags in your car? Do you plan on using them?

If you're comfortable swapping pads on your own, then I'd recommend a race pad for the track days/autox days only. Otherwise, a hybrid pad is a good compromise.

Remember, it's a compromise. It's not as good as a race pad, and won't have the bite or heat capacity, but it'll be significantly better than a street pad. Likewise, it will dust more and possibly make noise compared to a street pad, but it does have significantly higher capabilities.

cool. thanks for the info. I really appreciate it.

my problem isnt so much being comfortable with swapping the pads but more of me being too lazy lol.

For competitive reasons be proactive, definitely. Those guys rebuild engines annually regardless of what they think the wear and tear was. Wrenching on the car is another part of the enjoyment of their cars. I knew a guy who ran Solo 1 on his Mk1 and would rebuild when he had less than 1000 miles on the engine. That was his off season. Realistically however no one is being competitive on the road course in this car, at least not without a team of professionals behind them.

For an open track day, take your first time out unmodded, regardless of what anyone else says, the car may be far better than you are. A typical day goes like this: the first half of the day you will be learning the track. The 3rd quarter of the day will be you getting used to the car. And the last quarter of the day you'll be too tired to drive right and if you're not careful, you'll have an off course excursion.

The reasons I suggest not doing anything with your brake fluid are 1.) A lot of drivers in these cars will be on tight budgets and will try to do things themselves, and brake fluid is not something to be messed with except by professional shop. 2.) It's likely that more experienced drivers are a lot rougher on their brakes than most of us here, and that means that a first timer on the track, or even an intermediate driver may have no issues with stock brakes.

If you aren't absolutely sure you know what you're doing, then best case a self attempted brake fluid change is a tow truck to the shop fix. Worst case your car rolls into the street. Maybe it's only property damage, maybe someone dies. Either way, that's not a risk I would recommend in writing to anyone.

Says the guy with a garage, a team, the professional expertise, and now the potential liability of someone trying to change their own brake fluid at home.

I'd much rather end up in the gravel trap at Laguna Seca, than in court over involuntary manslaughter charges. You think I'm kidding. I saw a kid accidentally release the automatic gear shifter of his parents car at home out of park, let the car roll down the driveway, and run over their little brother who was like 3 years old. Sure the parents are to blame for not watching their kids playing around the car, but it's not out of the question when messing with your brakes for a 2700 lb car to get out of control. Don't kill your little brother, get rid of cable.

Okay well I didn't see it, I came out to the parents screaming, and a story about what happened before the EMT's showed up.

So because you saw one incident that nullifies the probably hundreds of thousands of brake jobs done (not to mention exhaust install, tire rotation, oil changes, and a laundry list of other work) in peoples driveways without someone getting hurt? You say he hit the car out of park? Was he doing a brake job? Was he working on the car at all? How is it relevant to whats being discussed? I am all for open debate, but for such a strong feeling please provide more context to how this is relevant.

You should know what you are doing when working on a car. How to safetly jack and support, to use chalks, etc. If not thats what shops are for or call a buddy to come help and learn. Mike did say if he was comfortable with doing it himself, who are we to tell him his comfort level. If he is unsure peopke are haven proven they are more than willing to help in any way they can.

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It is relevant because any car without a properly set up exhaust, intake, injection or oil system, is merely a nuisance, a polluter, or life limited, but a car without a properly set up brake system can be a lethal weapon. A car with factory brakes will get you to the track, a car where you failed to bleed them properly may not get you to the corner.

All of the above being said, my MR2 has had a caliper rebuild, brake lines replacement, new master cylinder, Porterfield R/S4 pads, and after all that I put in ATE Super Blue brake fluid. Now I have a lighter car, carry more speed into and around the corners than the twins, but having driven on 100+ degree days I never had fade or sponginess even before those upgrades. Really, none of it made much difference for the cost except the pads. Your mileage may vary based on your driving.

I still recommend having professionals work on your brake fluid. I feel to recommend otherwise is grossly negligent. Should you decide to ignore my suggestions and have success, then more power to you, hope it goes well. If it goes wrong, and given the prosecution happy nature of the world, well you likely have plausible reasoning to file suit against those recommending otherwise in this thread, as well as the forum owners themselves. More obscure lawsuits have succeeded in the US, and that's a little more invested than I want to be in someone's "brake job".

..... Nevermind.... Not worth my time...

@SeanBlader I don't really see your desire to get on a soap box about working on your car and it "potentially" being a detriment to society.

For one, most people understand their limits when it comes to working on cars. Many people take their cars to a shop for a CBE on our cars. This goes to show that people can think for the selves just fine because they know if they can't swap out a CBE they can't do a break job or break fluid replacement. These people figured it out on their own. Likewise those of us who can do the work will do the work because we have been taught either by a person or self. I my self have taken automotive classes in engine rebuilding, beginning electrical and suspension and breaks. I have all the proper knowledge to replace the fluid in my car.

Now just because someone says you should change your breaks and fluid for track driving does not imply that they should do it themselves. Saying "if you are comfortable" does imply that if you are not 100% comfortable you should have someone else do it or take another option.

I do understand you wish to keep people from making a mistake and hurting others but you have got to realize that you are on a car forum where more than 50% of the people do their own work and no one ever said "you can do it, it's so easy a monkey can do it".

A wise man once said, "You should learn from the mistakes of others, since you can never possibly hope to make them all yourself."

I didn't want to be selfish, and I thought others might also benefit from the experience this advice has brought me. But apparently everyone would prefer I not bother, so I'll save my effort in the future. :-( I guess I was incorrect that this was a forum for discussion. :brokenheart:

The problem isn't your decision to share advice but your choice in telling people they are wrong for working on their own cars.

Advice is welcome. Had you said "I suggest you take your car to a shop for a break fluid change unless you are 100% able and comfortable because of 'X' reason." no one would have had a problem.

A wise man also once said, "prepare your car for the most extreme situations it will be exposed to," or something along those lines.

:cheers:

Flushing out old fluid and putting in some much better (higher boiling point) fluid is easy. Might as well do it if you've already got the wheels off. Not to mention, it's probably a decent idea to change it out if it's been 2+ years already (most of these cars are approaching that mark).

Well, I suppose I can't help it if people think some idiot hypocrite on the internet is telling them what they should do.

Sorry OP. Get Porterfield R4S pads if they are made for the car, they're dusty but designed for street/autocross, and hold up just fine in California summer desert track days. As for fluid, get something better than stock. I like ATE Super Blue, because they also make a gold, which makes it excellent for flushing, you can tell when you're done with each line, and you're not mixing different types of fluid. But especially read the first line of this post.