Everyone Is Wrong About Subaru BRZ And Scion FR-S Sales
 

In Jalopnik today:

http://jalopnik.com/everyone-is-wron...les-1540661520


Sales charts are posted, since launch, by month. Comparo Miata sales.

Cheers!

those crazy europeans lol

So if those sales are correct, and the car isn't selling as well in Europe but we don't have numbers there, I'd like to know where Tada gets his "100K 86's" on the road from?

From the rest of the world that isn't the US or Europe?

Over 70k of them.....idk

I hope they either boost this car asap or just nix the twins altogether. Keeping this car super rare in the US will make me keep it, but a boosted version or a long production line won't. I actually can't decide what I want. Being the first owner with a first year production has its ups and downs that's for sure.

lots of 86s sold in Japan

30K number is US only, right? I don't think it is inconceivable that they have sold 70K FT86's in all the other combined markets. Japan and Europe, for that matter, does not crave horsepower and torque from bigger engines as much as American's do. Japanese, in particular, prefer a much more balanced vehicle that is smaller and lighter. If you look at automotive trends in the US, cars are tending to get larger, heavier, and have more power.

I'm sure the lead engineer of the GT86 project knows the sales figures and isn't making up a 100k sales number lol.

As of August 2013, Toyota had sold over 70,000 GT86's worldwide (and 21k in the US). Since then, Toyota has sold another 11,000 FR-S's in the US, or 52% more. Based on that, we can roughly extrapolate that Toyota has sold about 106,531 GT86's in the world.

And that's not including BRZ sales.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/245493/t...-global-sales/

30K just in the US. Then there is Canada, Europe, Asia, Australia, S and C America, South Africa. That is not even counting the BRZs which are also FT86 models that he may have included. I do not find the 100K worldwide unbelievable.

Last time I checked the twins had sold over 47K units in the US alone.

I think it's hilarious how the media latched onto the story about the GT86 missing sales targets, then "enthusiasts" everywhere piled on and pointed out how they knew all along it was overpriced and underpowered, and wouldn't sell.

When in reality, the GT86 has been selling just fine for what it is.

Something to think about when the same enthusiasts claim Toyota/Subaru would sell huge boatloads of these cars if they had more power and moved into the $30k range.

Aren't all these numbers pointless without knowing the goal Toyota/Subaru had in mind as a prediction?

Success is not an opinion, it is a measurable number that is set before the product is put into production. It's so silly seeing all these publications gauge success as a measure of how good they FEEL about FRS/BRZ sales.

100k units per year worldwide
~20k per year Scion's in N.A. with a roughly 2:1 ratio with the BRZ

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/19/s...-86-and-scion/
http://wardsauto.com/sales-amp-marke...sales-annually

They're pretty much hitting targets but definitely not exceeding them. There's so many factors that it's hard to judge, they're probably pumping them out as fast as they can right now the real question is whether or not they maintain current sales through the summer and next year, that's the real barometer. They can't sell more than they make, this isn't wall street.

Edit: lol the 100k/year article lists this site as the source and following that rabit trail posits that Japanese targets were about 1,000/500 units per month of the GT86/BRZ respectively.

My understanding from early statements of Subaru and Toyota, that the factory was being designed to build up to a maximum of 100,000 units "per year". But they started off with low production numbers and then started ramping up the output. It was never meant to exceed 100K cars (Toyota/Subaru) combined. So it seems the sales numbers are pretty close to what was expected, so their costs per car should be right about where they planned it. That bodes well for continued production for both companies. (And Scion needs this car to add excitement to their lineup.

I would not be to concerned with Europe sales right now. They are suffering the largest drop in new car sales of any major world market right now. All cars in Europe are down in sales right now.

Pulling stuff from my ass: It seems they will continue to make them but no major upgrades next model year?

This is actually somewhat comforting to me as I don't want to go buy one and then the 2015 model is all bad ass.

The lack of info on the 2015 is a little concerning though.

Rest assure, it doesn't seem Toyota or Subaru is going to Turbo Charge it this Generation. They may Bore or Stroke it out to 2.5, but I highly Doubt that.

Just because that change the Displacement of the car 86x86 mm, if they bore it out.

More likely you will see upgrade to the suspensions, tires, and being more expensive

Its crazy that subaru wont offer a turbo version after building turbo cars for so many years.

Dude, the car is only 2 years old, chill the fuck out.

Toyota sales figures for the European market in 2013:
http://newsroom.toyota.eu/pressrelea...-europe-market

Quote:

Table 1 – TME (3) total sales in 2013 TOTAL TOYOTA/LEXUS

It is my impression that customers in Europe are still waiting several months from contract to delivery of the GT86 (like I did), so if the sales figures are lower than expected it may partially be due to logistics and/or priorities.

See also http://left-lane.com/european-car-sa...ru/subaru-brz/

No one knows the real reason Toyota (not Subaru) made this public announcement that sales are off target. But where there is smoke there is fire. I strongly disagree with comparing our cars with a Miata. The only thing they have in common is they are both good at autocross and that counts for a small fraction of sales.


My speculation is the turbo gen coupe is killing both the GT86/BRZ/FRS is sales and profit.


The problem with the GT-86 platform is it is a one off. It was built from scratch ground up new chassis. This takes a tremendous amount of sales momentum to pay back the capital investment. This all has to be paid back before the platform is in the "green" and true improvements can be made. I hope they pull things off and give an engine without the flat torque dip. But the odds of sales increasing with the FA20 are slim as buying the car is no longer making the owner the only one in town. The informed consumer knows about the engines performance.


Its still a great car. As an owner the worst thing that could happen would be a quick death. This engine is unlikely to be used in anything else and an early death will make a replacement engine or other parts expensive years later when we need them.

the fa20 is used in the forester and the new wrx, granted in turbo form

you shut your dirty trolling mouth

Oddly, I feel like I see probably 60/40 split for the GC vs the Twins...
Not bad, given the GC is a couple years older (and bigger/more practical/cheaper)

I can cope with the rest of your post but this is just silly.

If I had to pick one thing from this car to bet on standing the test of time it's the FA20 block. Subaru has already put it in two of their best selling models and I remember intentions of using it across their entire lineup.

Of course you're going to talk about D4-S, which is a Toyota technology that has been in development for over 15 years. Sure it may not survive a refresh, whup-de-doo, all technology is transitional.
http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...-coming-masses

Maybe that power bump everyone craves for will come with true Direct Injection, and part of your statement will come true as the D4S is abandoned leaving early model owners a little bit out in the cold but to condemn the whole engine is foolish.

Everyone Is Wrong About Subaru BRZ And Scion FR-S Sales
 

The whole Genesis line (sedan included) sold less than the twins last year in the US. Yes, that is the 2.0T and V6 coupe AND the v6 and V8 sedan COMBINED.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...gures.html?m=1

They were targeting 50k (20k sedan, 30k coupe) sales per year when it was released. So, that split means that they moved around 18k coupes last year among the V6 and I4. So, year, the twins are far outselling the turbo 4 Gen Coupe.

The twins absolutely are Miata competitors. I was inches from taking home an 06 Miata sport. My wife said that knowing the twins were coming out, it made more sense to wait and see what it offered. It gives me all the Miata goodness (light, great chassis) without the drawbacks (drop top, 2 seater). It is a Miata that can carry kids in a pinch... which is perfect because we had my daughter 2 years after passing on the Miata.

They need to give this car a longer trial. I know Toyota hasn't met their ideal target yet but it hasn't been long enough and there hasn't been too much promoting of this car.

I feel like Toyota (and Subaru, if they do so, too) are doing a great disservice and missing out on an entire market by giving up before they put more effort into it.

I don't think the block is even common to the FA20T, the AWD means the starter is in a different location and obviously the pistons are different. The heads are different. I think just the crank and rods are the same.


This engine is a one-off. Low sales and not just the engine but a lot of parts will be expensive.


That's why I hope they keep selling 100k+ per years. Hell I hope it becomes the next EG civic where parts are dirt cheap.

The starter in the EJ255 in my old OBXT and the starter in my BRZ are in roughly the same place. Besides, the starter on our cars is bolted to the transmission. No block change needed.
The above italicized text is wrong. I was cleaning my engine bay earlier this week and saw that the starter is on the exact OPPOSITE side where it would be on an EJ motor.

An engine block is just the block; no pistons, no heads, not even a crank. Just the block. The engine isn't a one off.

IF they don't make Toyota's Sales figures and Toyota drops it, can it survive as a Subaru only model?

Was looking at April stats, thought I'd bump this.
BRZ: 2014 Jan-Apr: 2886, 2013 J-Apr: 2600
FRS: 2014 Jan-Apr: 4870, 2013 J-Apr: 6269

Of course the Toybaru is a runaway success. Although the waiting list, some countries initially reported a 20-year wait, has evaporated. At an annual volume of 100,000 units, it easily outsells all competition in every market, except the VW GTI in Europe.

The enthusiasm has been dampened by big (CEL) and small mechanical problems (endless rattlings, noisy fuel pump, etc) and poor PDI (missing plugs). High pricing (before and after tax) in Europe doesn't help, either. And European car sales took a deep dive last year, followed by another automotive market crash in Japan in 2014.

Car sales in Europe have now recovered somewhat. We may also hope the mild revision (from May 2014 onwards) fixes some of the (unacceptable) big and small mechanical problems. I disagree, however, that car buyers are deterred by the lack of horsepower, choppy ride, small cabin or high noise level.

Anyway, I expect both Toyota and Subaru to carry on for another 4, 5 years, because at 100,000 units a year, it pays to continue production for several more years. Not to mention the general excitement and publicity generated by such a highly regarded sports car.

It seems unlikely that the turbo-charged FA20 by Subaru will be adopted, though. For a start, that turbo-charger is mounted at the bottom, and there is no room there in the Toybaru.

What?

Toyobaru will be lucky if it ever sells half as many 86's as Mustang's or Camaro's in this country.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01...-year-end.html

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/05...-2014-ytd.html

With Ford estimating 10k Mustangs per year in Europe they're poised to match Toyobaru's production numbers with only two markets. I'll agree that Toyobaru looks successful at this point but I'd love to hear your reasoning behind 'outsells all competition' because it quite simply does not. I'm not even going to touch your turbo comment, are you trying out to be a blog writer?

I am so sorry, I did not have any American muscle car in mind when I claimed that the Toybaru outsold all its competition. I never thought muscle cars were competing against the Toybaru, Golf GTI, Hyundai coupe, Civic Coupe Si, etc. I apologise for my lack of imagination.

I know this conversation is about their profitability further keeping of the platform.

However, I'd like to point out that Toyota made record profits this year and are one of the best selling car companies (if not the best).

Not sure they have to worry too much about one platform not "overselling" like the others

I know this conversation is about their profitability further keeping of the platform.

However, I'd like to point out that Toyota made record profits this year and are one of the best selling car companies (if not the best).

Not sure they have to worry too much about one platform not "overselling" like the others

I'm not trying to berate you or anything, just trying to understand your claim, I don't like it when people present falsehoods as fact.

Let's go through your competition:

Toyobaru: 2 Door, RWD, Coupe
GTI: 2-4 Door, FWD, Hatch
Hyundai Genesis: 2-4 Door, RWD, Coupe/Sedan
Honda Civic Si: 2-4 Door, FWD, Coupe/Sedan

Mustang: 2 Door, RWD, Coupe/Convert
Camaro: 2 Door, RWD, Coupe/Convert
Challenger: 2 Door RWD, Coupe

All for under $30k.

Bear in mind that VW, Hyundai and Honda don't disclose the sales numbers for their 2 door version, so any sales comparison should include that concession that the 4-door is included.

I think it's hard to define what competes with the FRS/BRZ. As far as sales go, you have to compare it to what everyone is cross-shopping it with. On this forum, there are plenty of "86 vs Camaro/Mustang" threads, so I'd consider those as sales-competitive cars.

I would imagine the main selling points of this car (in the new car market) are its price point and sporty features. So I would compare it to all other sporty cars within the $20-35k price range, including the Civic SI, GTI, Genesis, V6 Mustang, etc. The upper limit would probably be the Nissan 370z, which they recently price-dropped to compete with (I'm assuming) FRS/BRZ sales.

Other popular comparisons are the S2000, M3, Cayman, and WRX STi, but I wouldn't say there is much consumer overlap at their prices in the new-car market.

I'm in the market for a sports car. I test drove a black BRZ limited today. It's the only new car I can afford that interests me. Wouldn't even consider a mustang or camaro. My first car was an old corvette, and they are cool, but I'm not into muscle cars anymore.

I'm also considering either a used Lotus Elise or Porsche Cayman. Although the older Caymans have potential IMS bearing issues, so it's probably out of serious contention. I'm really smitten with Lotus, but there is no dealer support in my area and as a daily driver, an FRS/BRZ would be far more practical.

The BRZ was a blast to drive. Really easy to chuck it around. I ride a 130hp motorcycle, so it wasn't close to fast but I didn't think it was "underpowered" either. :burnrubber:

The salesman on my test drive said they had sold a lot of them earlier this year but not as many lately. They had a white 2015 blue edition inside on the showroom floor, and had several limited editions on the lot. 2 white, 2 black, 1 blue, 1 red.

These cars I find have rather concentrated sales in specific areas rather than encompassing the whole nation. There are undoubtedly some areas where its likely going to be unpopular. Based on the sales in Canada there are 4300 FRS and 2200 BRZs that have been sold. Contrast that to the thousands of Mustangs sold in Canada...yet I barely see a Mustang around in my drives, but I see a lot of twins in the Greater Toronto Area. Heck I actually think its more common to see a twin than my version of the Impreza(drop eye/blob eye). I thought I was buying something rare as it catered to my wishlist of what I wanted in a car which I thought was too niche, oh well I'm glad others are enjoying it.

When I was helping my sister buy a Impreza the past few weeks, none of the Subaru dealers had many issues selling their BRZs, clearing the 2014s though is their primary goal and the last dealer noted they only had 1 more 2014 left, the rest were 2015s. The only thing I do wonder about FRS/BRZs in fact isn't whether they're selling or not, but more of curiosity on the ratio of AT to MT.

On my way to the Subaru dealer, I stopped at a used BMW dealer after spotting a lava orange FRS from the street. It was a 2013 with only 3k miles. The sticker price was 29.9k, he said we can let you have it for 22.5k. I wasn't looking for that color, but thanked him for showing it to me anyways.

And then on the way home, I saw a WR Blue Pearl BRZ drive with custom gold wheels drive by. It looked really beautiful. There seem to be a lot of them in this area.

I have no idea how I'd decide on a color. I really liked the blue, but in person, the pearl white looked so awesome too. From internet pictures, I didn't like red or black before but in real life both looked great on the car too. I haven't seen a silver or dark gray metallic car yet.

The STI aero effects on the blue edition were impressive. They have little logos on them. :) The wheels were better than stock but I'd rather have a set of OZs or something. My biggest concern was the blue interior. It's ok but I like the regular limited interior better. And I ended up liking the cf panel on the '15 dash better than the silver dash on the '14 BRZs. It seems to have the same pattern as the "mustache" on the front bumper.