A worry I have; Is it too good?
 

I can hear those pilot lights being ignited now!
http://mimg.ugo.com/201105/4/8/1/193...en_480x360.jpg

But here's where I worry about my personal enjoyment of this car.

This car has been about driving FUN from the start. It's not about being fast on paper. It's about that joy you get when you and your car are communicating and you have only the road ahead of you twisting off into the distance.

When I think of that, as with most humans, I think about past cars to draw my expectations from. One of which that the above description reminds me of is this car:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2206/2...2378c1104f.jpg
A 1987 Toyota Corolla Deluxe.

It had 70hp, weighed a hair over 2000lbs, had an open rear diff, and no power accessories whatsoever. The shifter had over a foot of throw, the suspension bushings were all loose, the shocks were probably as old as the car, and it had spaghetti for sway bars (bar?). It lacked certain things that I expect in a car these days. Like heat, and the ability to maintain 70mph up a hill. I bought it in 2004 for $900, sold it in 2008 for a pizza, then bought it back for a (better) pizza in 2009, and finally traded it in on my spec.B for $2000 in 2010.

It was slow. So slow that the only way to get it to merge onto highways at today's speeds was to treat the on-ramp like a corner on a track and make sure I hit the entry, apex, and exit. And then pray that I could find a gap big enough to merge into. But despite the one-wheel peels, boat-like handling, responsiveness of a drunken cow, and the fact that driving it 9/10ths was an exercise, it was freakishly FUN to drive. I could drive it like crazy, hitting redline in every gear and STILL be within legal speed limits. It was an amusement park ride that only cost gas to ride.

And that level of fun is what I'm looking forward to in the BRZ.

But here's my worry, will the BRZ lose some of that fun by being a good car? It'll have nearly 3 times the horsepower, and every modern-day luxury will be at my fingertips. Not to mention a suspension that actually works!

So how much of the fun did I experience in that beat-up rustbucket of an AE86 was due to the absurdity of it? And how much was due to the fact that in spite of it's failings, I could place my inside tires within an inch of where I wanted and that it would do whatever I asked of it (besides passing at 80mph uphill)? Will the BRZ's handling make me feel like I have to hold back all the time like when I'm driving my STI? Will the power make sprints to cruising speed too easy?

Is the car just too good to recapture the essence of those old fun-to-drive cars from our past?

It makes me wonder. (Though I'm not cancelling my order by any means. ;) )

http://smhttp.14409.nexcesscdn.net/8...2484082531.jpg

I think it will offer a distilled version of that fun without all the bad parts, like creaking doors, rattles, random part failures and dirty looks from your neighbors and your significant other's parents. This is the principal reason I am adding the BRZ to the stable alongside my MR2. The MR2 has served me well for 4 years; I bought it for $700, and have put about $12,000 into making it faster and more reliable (just let that soak in). I've done a pretty good job making it quicker, more reliable, and more rewarding to drive, but I still want a car that doesn't creak, squeak, and rattle all the time, isn't deafening inside the cabin (2.5" exhaust on an N/A was a poor choice), doesn't burn or leak fluids, and that has nice new shiny paint. I think I'll keep the MR2 around because it's nice to have a beater that you can drive at the limit on the track and not worry too much about scratching up if you overshoot an apex and end up in the weeds or a tire barrier. But what I'm really looking forward to is having a new, fun, reliable car that looks great and gets thumbs up instead of sneers and laughs ;)

That was a fun read.

I had a 2.5 inch exhaust on my neon, with a glass pack as a resonator, no cat, and an RV muffler. It sounded almost like stock at idle. Under load it was certainly louder then stock, but still pleasing both inside and outside the car. You might want to experiment a little with the setup.

Op, something tells me you'll never get that feeling back. Even with the same car. This is the bad part of growing up. Having kids helps, but somehow I doubt I'll ever enjoy a 14 second 1/4 mile or the near 1g on ramps as much
as I did in that neon. It put down a whooping 138 whp, it didn't have ps with a 16:1 rack, and the engine mounts and suspension were so stiff that a four hour drive was awful and I still loved it.

Mid-engine car. I don't have that much room to work with! I'm also using a basically straight-through muffler, race cat, and 2.5" mandrel-bent piping so it's got almost zero restriction.

Back on topic, Draco's Corolla sounds exactly like all the Corollas I've driven, lol. Here's the one I bought and drove 20mins. before the engine threw a rod:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...6coupe/001.jpg

Good. I like to be entertaining. :)

I know, because the absurdity was still a big factor of my love for that car. Nothing like chirping THIRD in that little thing. It just made me laugh.

I'm thinking the BRZ is going to remind me more of my STI than my Corolla. It's not a bad thing; actually that's impressive. But I will miss the insanity. I just can't see getting into another car like the corolla. For all the fun, it was too impractical on today's highways.

The BRZ will have its own form of fun. :)

That color! >.< Makes my eyes nauseous.

The BRZ will be a replacement for my Legacy spec.B. I originally got the spec because I thought I wanted a comfortable car that was also fun. But I've since found that what I really want is a fun car that's also comfortable. So the BRZ should slot in nicely.

My friends will just have to put up with less comfort than me when I cram them in the back. ;)

This entire discussion is the reason I've ordered a BRZ. My first cars were Hondas (had a DC5 type S and then a DC2 Type R) and I LOVED driving them. As I grew up and moved on to BMWs I've found I just haven't enjoyed owning them as much, they are AMAZING cars (my Z4 M coupe was by far the best car I've owned) but I never find myself really DRIVING them on the street in a way that makes me smile. To put it simply, their limits are too high and they can carry FAR too much speed through corners without being unsettled. My little brother recently picked up a Mk6 GTI and I couldn't believe how much fun I was having ripping around in it!!

When it comes to the "numbers" I was honestly concerned at first, but I've come to the realization I drive for myself and not to impress or race others. If I can get back a little of my passion for under 30k I can't wait.

I know! Gold like a brick. I actually stripped all the paint off and primered it. It went to a new owner a few weeks ago - he's got like 4 AE86's so I'm sure it'll get put to use!

THIS. I'm finding I have the same "problem" in the S4. Good gawd, is it the nicest car I've ever driven! (And I've driven some damn nice cars!) But at 100mph it feels like I'm doing 40mph, and there's just so much grip it's impossible to come close to the car's limits. It's the best all-arounder I could ask for, but it does lack some of the thrill that my MR2 offered me with it's light weight, peaky powerband, and heavy, high-feedback steering. I think the BRZ will strike the perfect balance between absurd fun, and comfort/refinement. I hope it will be like my E30 BMW 325i. Light, quick, solid, and eventually, iconic ;)

On my netbook at work under the fluorescent lights, it looked like some kind of hideous green/gold color. :barf:

Fact of life: generally people think that the things they owned/did while they were younger were much more fun. Soooo, don't expect the same level of excitement.

Probably because in a lot of cases the things we owned earlier in life were more about passion than practicality.

and when it came to cars you pretty much had to drive it to get to places.

Nowadays you have so much electronannies that you pretty much drive a car with it holding your hand.

-Traction control is there when you cant launch properly (hey genius less throttle power or higher gear start)
-Stability control is there when you cant turn properly (hey genius dont take a turn so damn fast when your car isnt properly equipped to do so)
-ABS is there when you cant brake properly (hey genius pumping the brakes does the same thing)
-Air bags for when you cant drive properly (hey genius follow the rules of the road!)
-Blind spot monitoring for when you cant change lanes properly (hey genius its called shoulder checking)
-backup camera for when you cant park properly (hey genius use your mirrors and look out for your surroundings)


and so on and so on.

Same thing going on in the video game industry and movie industry. Movies are just hijacking and ruining classic franchises, books and sequals, and the video game industry has gotten so shallow that every game is practically a sequal or the same game with different packaging. Music too....

Man the current generation is retarded......(sorry if i offend)
And im not even an elder.....

Yeah, the grass was also greener and tastier in the past for some random "logical" reason. Or maybe, just maybe, younger folks are just easier to excite or, alternatively, younger body is better at encoding emotions into memories, or both.

Air bags for when you can't drive properly? How about, "Airbags for when a drunk asshole hits you, so that maybe you don't die".

Otherwise, I tend to agree with you. There are too many driving aids on newer cars, but is it making the current generation "retarded"? I'm not so sure. There are a million other things of greater causal power that affect "the current generation[being] retarded" than simply cars that are easy to drive.

First of all -- great post. Secondly, to answer your question, Yes -- it will be too good (too new, too not-totally-ratted-out-like-an-old-beater-that-warms-the-heart-but-definitely-not-your-hands-or-feet) to have that same type of charm. It will have it's own sort of charm, and character, which we will all come to know.

We'll make new memories. And hopefully we'll never forget where we came from.

Remember, in a few month's time there will be BRZ and FRS running around the US being neglected and driven on mis-matched tires just like the Corolla you're speaking of. :thumbup:

ok well the airbags thing was more i wanted to follow my stupid "hey genius ..." comments lol.

and yeah that was more of a rant that kind of got off topic about how current generation of kids are more retarded now because everythings become oversimplified for them.

I can echo some of the sentiments the OP had, and some of the replies here. I've had a lot of cars, and many were German. I thought my S4 wasn't all that fun because it was heavy, AWD, and too calm at speed. So I got an M Coupe and then a Cayman... thinking that going to RWD and then mid-engined (for that smaller moment of inertia) would be much more fun. I found out that I could never push the Cayman without being very, very unreasonable on public roads. (I've had my share of track time, I'm referring to daily driving only).

Then I realized I missed my Miata more than anything. And, especially, when it was on snow tires in dry weather. With a small child, I need a back seat, if just for occasional use. The BRZ just seemed so perfectly timed.

I was actually a little uneasy when I read the great slalom and lateral G numbers that the BRZ posted. I mean, I want the light weight, low COG and moment of inertia, great handling, and intense feedback, but, it does make me worry it's too capable to enjoy on a daily basis.

That sense of being at the limit is really the most fun, for me. If I can be at 9/10ths at 45 mph on a ramp instead of at 90 mph, it will happen more often - without catching the car in front of me, getting tickets, or feeling like I'm cheating death.

I don't know draco... I always appreciate your posts, whether on IWSTI, Vorschalg, or here, but while I agree with the whole idea of capturing the basics of a drivers car, I do think that this kind of hype is getting a bit overblown. Being slow really isn't a great thing, but everything is about compromises and this car hits the nail on the head for me with what is offered and what has been given up, in favor of price and purity.

That said, I think my point is that nostalga about your fist fun car is something that is soooo irrational you cant quantify it and compare it to this car. That and the title of the thread sounds a bit to fanbois ;)

LOL, I clicked on this thread just to get a good laugh... sounded silly to me, too.

But, I think he's probably talking about almost all new cars being a little too capable, and a little too disconnected. I don't want to artificially make the car "bad" or "slow." It's just that when a car has more grip than you need, it's not as much fun - to me - different people enjoy all sorts of different aspects of cars.

Gentlemen, welcome to growing old. Good post Draco and nice job on the thread title.:thumbsup:

Yep. The horsepower war has it's place, but so too is there a need for cars that aren't so focused on outright max velocity and power output. Less is more, less is more.

Just the mere fact that we're having conversations like this one is evidence enough that Toyota & Subaru are on to something good here.

Well, the Corolla was far from my first car, or my first fun car. But it's fun per dollar or level of absurdity was pretty high. It will be hard to beat. :)

My first (and second) car was an '87 Nissan Pulsar. It was FWD :( but it was a pretty cool car because you could take the T-tops off and the rear deck lid and cruise around in what felt like a skateboard. After those I got a '98 Trans Am. So I had plenty of power there. And I've had quite a bit in between as well. It's just that the corolla had some indefinable element that's hard to find.

As the hype goes, it is pretty high for a new car. But it's not often a new car comes out with a near perfect record on reviews. I just look at how the car is built, what its goals are, and how well it seems to be designed for that goal, and use that to temper the hype. I dreamed about an STI for 4 years. And when I finally got one it still exceeded my expectations. I think I have reasonable expectations for the BRZ.

But you can never be sure of the "x-factor" (as Top Gear likes to put it) until you actually sit in a car and drive it.

Thanks, I knew it would tweak a few noses out of joint. :D

A local forum I'm on is full of drag racers and f-bodies, and other fast cars. There are two threads around 200 posts long each about the BRZ/FR-S on it. This car has had more discussion on that board than most other cars, and it only has 200hp. The BRZ is a very polarizing car because it give the horsepower war the finger. We'll see if it can keep this level of interest up once they are on the roads and at AutoXes. I don't think it'll be a flop; my ride in one pretty much made me sure of that. But will it just be mediocre? We shall see.

This is a concern I have as well to a point.

My S2000 was too good for the street. You had to break several laws to have fun with it on public roads and when not pushing it the car was pretty boring since the limits were so high.

Since the focus was on having fun at lower limits though I'm hoping this car will be perfect. 200HP isn't that much considering the weight, I do not want a RWD Fit.. it'd be fun on the street but painful on the track :P

In terms of my 3 favorite cars to drive on the street that I've owned I'd probably order them:
1. ITR
2. 88 Conquest TSi
3. 85 Toyota Cressida

None of those are the fastest cars I've owned though.

It sounds to me that the main reason why your old Corolla was so much fun was because it wasn't expected to perform well since it was ostensibly a piece of crap. :) The second reason is that it only cost you $900 + a decent pizza. Because of those two reasons, you drove it with insanity, so your delight in the car is a direct reflection of your experience greatly exceeding your already low expectations.

And now, you're worried about the BRZ because the expectations are so high. And even if it meets your expectations, you're afraid that it won't beat your expectations as much as your old Corolla did.

Go buy that old Corolla back! :bellyroll:

Sounds a bit like the case where it's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than it is to drive a fast car slow. That said, I'm sure on a race track you want to be able to drive a fast car fast. :happy0180:

Well said, and more succinctly than I.

Most important for me on the the track was a feeling that the other drivers had equal cars, or at least we all had the potential to have equally fast cars. I raced a formula continental, an awfully fast car on a track by my standards. (See avatar for a pic of a continental).

On the street, I'm not competing. At all. It's for pleasure while getting from A to B. I respect Dave's opinions, but I think that I could really like a RWD Fit. I know I don't want another Cayman, so if this car's limits are 90% of that, I could be mildly disappointed. I'd most like a 2+2 miata. I hope that's what the BRZ feels like.

Here's a list of notable sports cars I've owned in the past 6 years (my 20's) and it should give you an idea of why this car seems so perfect to me:

1989 Toyota MR2 Supercharged: 2500lbs, 145hp, 0-60 in 6.5sec
1994 Toyota MR2 Turbo: 2900lbs, 200hp, 0-60 in 6.2sec
1990 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II: 2800lbs, 200hp, 0-60 in 6.2sec
1989 BMW 325i 2dr: 2800lbs, 168hp, 0-60 in 8.5sec
1973 Datsun 240Z: 2300lbs, 150hp, 0-60 in 8.9sec

Now I can have the same performance that I've loved, but in a brand new car that doesn't break down once a month? AWESOME.

Gosh, after all the cars I have had, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Everyone should get a chance to read this thread again. And so, I post.

False.
I track 911s, m3, Brz and my turbo 280zx and am giddy like a five year old, especiallly the Brz...

Get impractical, it's worth it
I can't wait to track it after its supercharged

Haha. I was talking about nostalgia. :bonk:

Wow.. 7 month old thread back from the dead. :D

http://pad1.whstatic.com/images/thum...uffle-2009.jpg

So, now I have a BRZ and have driven it quite a bit. How does it stack against that old rusty corolla?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8454/8...52667746_n.jpg VS http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2206/2...78c1104f_n.jpg

FIGHT!

The BRZ is very fun. It's light and alive, and really works with the driver rather than against. However, it's limits, even before the better tires and suspension are pretty high. The feeling of getting 9/10th out of the car by just driving harder than normal is not there. You have to lean on it to get that feeling, meaning that you're toeing the line legally.

It also doesn't have the absurdity of that old Corolla. The pedals are firm, the shifter is short and precise, and the body is composed and fully competent no matter what you ask of it.

Does this mean the Corolla is more fun or a better car? I don't believe so. The BRZ brings its own kind of fun. Because while it has heated seats, GPS, and power everything, these improvements don't get in the way of the simple act of driving. The BRZ is such a great dance partner that it's just a joy to drive.

So, BRZ or Corolla? BRZ.

It may not be as Monty Python as the Corolla...
http://www.htbackdrops.com/v2/albums...y_python_3.jpg
...but where it lacks absurdity, it makes up for in everything else that makes a driver's car. So while I may have missed the Corolla in the past, the BRZ feels like a true replacement.

And besides, the old Corolla would have never been at home here:
http://www.motorcycleroads.com/ra-co...6--555-1-0.jpg
The Triple Nickel.