fi and openflash tune
 

First dealer or fi maker who tunes with the openflash tab gets my money.

Supercharge or turbo.

I just want a kit i can install/flash in my garage then drive off.

PLEASE!!!

I dont even know what to say

this will take a while unless @vishnu does it as logging is not there yet.

So you want every single kit that is currently on the market then? The only difference between every kit that uses EcuTek and OpenFlash is a lower cost and flashing with a small tablet versus a laptop, but you still need a computer to load the tune into the tablet. I would guess that other tuners will start making tunes for the forced induction kits that can be flashed with OpenFlash, but that won't come till datalogging occurs. I don't see any of the kit manufacturers making the swap from EcuTek to OpenFlash.

Do kit manufacturers have to pay Ecutek for the basemaps? If OFT improves a few things and doesn't pass any fees to who ever is making the kit. Everyone wants too find ways to save costs. Not just customers.

Ecutek is still on top right now.

They have to pay a fee to become a tuner of EcuTek that gives them the software to make and edit ROMs along with adding the RaceRom features. That initial cost is farily low when you consider how many forced induction kits they sell. They could make basemaps with one of the ROM editing softwares and then ship the kits loaded with the OpenFlash tablet and save a few dollars on the cost of the kit versus shipping it with an EcuTek license and cable.

If they had a Ecutek Tuner in La I would be a little more inclined to spend the money on the cable and what not. Will be nice when other options become solid for FI so I can really start planning a build.

Our kit, and most of the other kits, you can install and flash in your own garage. Ecutek and OFT don't differ in the ability to provide a flashing solution, they differ in the delivery of the rom to the ecu of your vehicle. With ecutek, it is your own laptop + ecutek cable. With OFT, it's the OFT tablet.

The main reason that provided basemaps for FI kits are in ecutek only right now is due to a number of factors. The fact EcuTek has been around for over a year on the platform, which means all of the turbo and s/c kit developers had to use it to develop their kits. It also is the most developed of the flash programs available, and does provide a feature set that isn't available on the other programs yet.

Nobody can design their turbo or s/c kits to run with OFT, it's the other way around - OFT needs to have the features to work with the FI kits. In the case of our company and our kit, for instance, we are just selling hardware. While we are an EcuTek master tuner, it's simply to support our hardware. If and when it becomes necessary - or viable - we'll become OFT/BRZedit/Opensource master tuners as well, for the same reason.

there will be plenty available in due time. open tuning of this platform is in it's infancy. ecutek/remote tune will always be the best option for hands-off 'set it and forget it' types. openflash will have remote tuning (inexpensive at that) from vishnu once logging is available. all good things come to those who wait :)

i'll just add that anyone who is considering such an extreme engine modification as converting to some form of forced induction would do well to understand how the thing works. 'set it and forget it' or 'let someone else handle it' isn't always the best option, in my experience. it took me less than an hour to un-fubar what my 'highly recommended pro tuner' couldn't figure out in 3 months of fiddling. it's not that he's an idiot or i'm so awesome, just that he has an hour a week with my car if that, and doesn't drive it every day. problems seem to get solved quicker when the guy feeling the pain is the one doing the fixing, and when you have the car parked outside every day available to be worked on in little chunks.

if you 'just want to flash it and drive', FI might not be for you, unless you can find a shop that will do it end-to-end and has a competent tuner (that's the hard part).

We don't support it and have no plans to. I doubt most tuning shops will either. Time is money and whatever one will save on the hardware will be long gone when you factor in the tuning time. Yesterday we spent a few hours sending out about 20 tunes for revisions during the weekly cleanup. You just can't do that unless the software and interface is intuitive and efficient.

We will have support for the Vortech SC very soon. And after that, other FI options will naturally follow. Maps will be posted on the website, free of charge and fully viewable/editable, when they are fully tested.

See. I love this guy...

And thats why i went with the openflash. I want to install in a day, drive the car to work the next, and tune the car in a few months if i feel like there is any power left on the table. Heck. When the datalogging is available i could hit up shiv with a remote tune, all while continuing to drive my car daily. I was hoping a company would jump on the openflash capabilities and utilize the low cost tunig option to sell more turbo/superchargers.

Im just saying, they coud easily do a safe in house tune costing nothing but a few hrs of time, and making it available after purchase. It could easily be the thing that pushes their kit over the top.

You could literally buy a turbo or S/C kit today, with a tune, and flash it onto your car via a laptop. Just FYI.

As James said - you really don't want to set it and drive off - you would really need to do some logging/monitoring to make sure it's all running healthy before beating on it.

You can remote tune, or tune in person. Some have the option of renting a cable for lower cost to you, etc.

I'm purchasing a turbo kit here soon and I too want OFT to hurry up and offer FI support. I won't be doing much tuning on my own, so naturally I would want tuners to hop on board with this as well. I just hope that they offer the support by the time I get around to dropping on a kit, in which case I will make my purchase of ECUtek model and eventually switch when the support is satisfactory with OFT.

With the exception of 1 person localy (unfortunately not an ECUtek tuner), I wouldn't trust anyone absolutely with my $5k investment, especially when it can turn into a $10k headache. Anyone who says "trust me" makes me weary, regardless of reputation. While I can't do the majority of tuning on my own just yet, I am competent enough to catch something if it seems off to me, which is extremely beneficial for longevity and safety. Datalogging doesn't show you what the tables values are, only current running conditions. I want to see what my tuner did and, more importantly, WHY.

Another benefit is being able to adjust the stupid little things like fuel trims. With the changing of weather, these things can certainly make a big difference in how well and how safe your car runs. It's stupid to have to be limited on your tuner's time to adjust something so simple its infuriating. That's if you're lucky enough to get someone who offers free updates, which would more than likely make your wait times even greater.

So as a tuner, you're not willing to tune using a program that has less features but costs you nothing to use, especially when it's not reinventing the wheel, tuning principles apply regardless of the program you are using. You are about to have people throwing money at you and you're just going to say no? Guess the fewer that capitalize on this, will just profit all the more.

Not to mention, the ridiculous price variances you find on ECUtek cables and licenses through different vendors. Standardize your shit guys.

I see tuners on here that don't get it.

I want to tune my car now for NA, and for FI in a year.

Why would I spend $600 now for Ecutek cable & license, + cost of tune and dyno time; and then repeat that every time I add something to my car? Might be great for tuners, but no way in hell I'm paying additional $500 every time I want a tune (including local dyno for remote tune). Plus if I ever get tired of the car I could sell the OFT, not a option with Ecutek.

With OFT, I can load up a generic tune, and if I want it customized, I'll send a tuner my data logs. The ft86 community now has a viable affordable tuning platform, and if you want our business, you best get on board with OFT in the future.

As OP started, when I buy my turbo, OFT support will be a top requirement.
.

Hardware doesn't support software. Software supports the hardware.

OFT doesn't support the FI hardware at this time. If you want OFT support of hardware, you need to be asking OFT to support it. If you want tuners to tune FI cars with OFT, OFT needs to have the features necessary to tune and support FI properly. If it doesn't, then then the tuners won't use it.

Lets use Accessport as an example, an example of something that actually happened to us. Accessport used to support the 2.5i naturally aspirated 2008+ Impreza. So we designed a turbo kit around the idea of the Accessport being used to program the 2.5i. When we finished up the turbo kit, we were informed by COBB they were no longer going to produce the accessport for the 2.5i. And when we got our hands on the Accessport for those models that were on the market, we found out that it didn't have any support for the maps that were necessary for tuning the 2.5i for a turbo kit. So now we use opensource/romraider/ecuedit to support those cars using those kits.

See, it's not a matter of wanting to lock our product to any particular tuning software, it's a matter of using whatever is available that works.

The pricing here is way off for what most tuners would charge for those services secondary services....

I could go on and list differences and correct some things but it would just turn another thread into a Ecutek > Opensource debate...which I doubt people want to see.

If either of you wants to discuss tuning/prices/differences in software we'd be happy to, but probably best done via PM.

:)

I know the current pros and cons of each. I understand the lack of support for FI with the OFT.. for now.


Like I said, if it's not available when I'm ready, there will be no choice for me but to go the ECUtek route, hoping that shortly after FI will be supported by OFT. My comments where just my thoughts on WHY I want OFT vs ECUtek, and I think that there are a lot of people with my same concerns. This thread was specifically about FI and OFT, not "hey ECUtek already supports this, and OFT doesn't!" We already know this, and we know the major vendors on here that support it. What we are addressing are those tuners who have plans for OFT when the support becomes available for FI.

My other comments weren't toward any specific vendor here, I was merely addressing the overall attitude of vendors toward OFT who currently use ECUtek.

what exactly does OFT not support that is necessary for FI? it's a map flashing device, you don't even edit roms with it. it seems like a contrived argument that's easier to say than 'we have an exclusivity agreement with ecutek and can't do it'.

oft can't possibly 'not have the features for fi' when all it does is flash a damn map.

I agree. I think people have forgotten that it is basically a $500 map flasher. The editing of the table in the ROMs can be done with multiple software programs and the editing of those tables to run forced induction on a non forced induction ROM is up to the tuner.

I would probably also note that new logic doesnt necessarily need to be introduced to the stock rom to support FI. I think the stock rom can be rescaled to be used as a FI rom. If I had a car to test with I would find out exactly what needed to be done, but sadly, there arent enough twins here in ohio for me to play with. Ive helped people do it with the older 2.5i's so it shouldnt be too difficult. I think the issue right now is just that OFT is still very new and needs time to reach new people. The OS nature of it will benefit the community it just takes time for people to adopt it and use it.


That and were still waiting for logging *cough cough =)

Hey endrswrd, I figured you'd land up in this thread eventually ;)

Patience, Kimosabi.

Yes and no. While you can scale stock stuff, with the EcuTek RaceROM custom mapping we can bypass the stock logic. This is huge. All of the FI programming we do on the BRZ involves this so we can base it off of MAP or do boost based fueling/timing. With this you can up the boost, put in boost failsafe, change fueling relative to boost, and make ECU based boost control. Load based is great for NA, but sucks with big boost (or even low boost on high compression) since you're so close to the edge.

I am very excited Td-d, and I have some local guys who cant wait either!

One thing I do need to do if I can get my hands on a car is work with merp to add some boost control stuff. The only major thing I really need to make these maps better for FI is getting an EBCS(and all the associated TD and boost cut) to work with the stock ecu. Gotta look for a sensor we can hijack!

Should be really easy considering the ecu is in the engine bay lol.

Same thing can be done in OS, it just is going to take some time. I am a software developer by day, and actually get to do some DoD based RE work for my company as well. I am well aware the stock rom isnt the best setup, but adding boost logic from other subarus will be straightforward once I have a car to work with. I know for sure merp would help as I am sure alot of guys would love to go completely OS for their BRZ tuning needs. Realistically, the boost cut is easy, its adding in an EBCS that will be more difficult. But there are cars who wont need this either (sc guys), and would just need emergency boost cut (doubtful for a SC but its nice to have).

But for someone who just wants a moderate kit like base innovate, avo, or greddy, ~ 225whp, the license/cable/tune end up adding 25% to the cost.

If these cars are so complicated to tune that a 225 whp kit requires bypassing stock logic and EcuTeck then it cuts off a lot of potential customers.

Maybe I'm wrong but those who buy an Innovate kit with their carb 210hp base-map are paying for more than they need with the Ecutek.

I totally get the need for a $900 tune+ tuning equipment on those pushing 270+hp, but at some point someone is going to sell a ~225 hp kit with a free base map. Probably for $3500 done deal. Its a business model and market segment that this platform needs. Like Flying Miata's $3k kit?

The direct injector controller is in the engine bay mounted to the intake manifold on the passenger side, but the ECU is inside under the dash on the passenger side. By the way EcuTek is using the fuel vapor vent sensor input to control an EBCS. It is mounted under the intake manifold on the driver side.

Oh so thats just the intermediate controller. Damn. I was thinking it was the Entire ECU like they are doing on some newer cars.

Thanks for the tip! Ill have to look into that sensor. So eliminating it has no ill effects?

Nobody has reported any thus far but there aren't many that are using that form of boost control.

The only reason I would go that path is just familiarity to turbo subaru control logic. I am okay with using load based tuning as its what is used on all of the stock logic turbo subarus as well.

Sure I wont have all the cool features like boost per gear etc, but setup properly load based tuning will be just fine for moderate power levels / MAF based tuning.

With an EBCS ill have boost cut / boost control based on weather. Which is the more important thing, even though most boosted twin cars are probably just running spring pressure as they are mostly low boost systems.

You can alter fueling based on MAP pressure, and control boost, with no new logic in the ecu at all. The maps are already there to be used. For boost you'd just use a tactrix solenoid and the fuel vent table same as ecutek does.

i'm not aware of anything that's happened with the miata scene since mid-2006 or so, but i know back then (and for a decade or so prior), flyin' miata has provided base maps (no remote tuning) with their nemesis systems (and others prior to it) and people love them. they've logged literally millions of trouble-free miles on untouched, conservative base maps. there's no reason at all why the people selling forced induction for the 86 couldn't do the same and provide an all-inclusive package without the added cost of a license and the expectation of custom tuning.

the 'gotta have it custom tuned' attitude doesn't really exist where there aren't convenient options for it, and people don't seem to care much. certainly they're not popping engines left and right. they're not making every last hp they possibly could, but for most people that isn't the point. they want a good value on a safe bump in power.

Fun fact - we created the original flying miata turbo kits for them. Originally, they just used a piggy back to handle the tune. Quite simple, quite basic, and a simple enough ecu that it didn't have to be that complex.

ECU's have gotten a lot more complex since those days.

The issue is we dont use the solenoid's tables for duty its all custom coded into the ecu. My boost control tables are actually 6 custom tables 24x24 & 20x20 in size just for reference. Its not that I cant use OFT or Romraider but just like Paul@AVO said untill they support the features we need not just the bells & whistles its not worth it at this point and you can take that from someone who has Ecutek, BrzEdit, Rom Raider, ECUFlash Beta and OFT software so ive seen everything each has to offer and at the sacrifice of price id rather not tune a car outside of what i currently use to make my life harder and risk damaging a customers car because im the person trying to find a work around so something software doesnt have available at the moment.

If they build it we will come.... but its just a foundation at the moment call me when the roof is on the building.

So what needs to be altered on the ECU to handle moderate output like the Innovate/Bullet/Sprintex kit? When do you need to look at getting custom boost control logic from other Subies patched into the ROM?

Does anyone have basemaps from their Innovate/Bullet/Sprintex kits that they are willing to share?

nothing at all. your ecu doesn't know if you're making 225whp or 550, makes no difference whatsoever. the same principles apply and work exactly the same. if you want to use electronic boost control you can do that without altering logic at all. personally i choose to stick to manual boost control, because i like my sanity.

as far as tuning it, i just pulled some timing whilst smoothing out the timing map, made the open loop afr targets reasonable for boost, and went for a drive. make some runs and log all the important bits, mainly knock control. make sure afrs are stable where you want them, then begin adding about a half a degree at a time to the cells with no knock, rinse and repeat.

my protune made 260whp and pulled -5deg in most FLKC cells, knocked like hell pretty much everywhere, with crazy afr's all over the place an 20+% fuel trims. my new tune, using basically this exact method (more precisely, that described by bad noodle's guide pretty much exactly), made 289whp at the same boost and has 0KC, 0 LTFT across the board. it took 54 revisions to get there, so it's not an overnight process. it takes time, and make small adjustments, no big changes at once.

most importantly, when something is wrong, i can fix it myself. no email back-and-forth, waiting a week for a response bs. teach a man to fish...

but us commoners can't figure out the fa20... so just pay someone to maybe possibly get it right when they find the time ;).

Don't forget the closed to open loop delays.

any update on RR logging availability yet?

Nope - but I haven't been in touch with Mike. SkullWorks had Colby sort his rom out, maybe he has an idea? I'll shoot Mike a mail.

yes... i set the delays to zero before any further adjustment. i tried playing with them to eliminate tip-in knock i was seeing but it didn't have an effect, so they're back to zero and it seems to work well.

got it, thanks. I'm a bit confused though who's working on what project :)
I thought Colby and Mike work on EcuFlash nor RR?