Is the BRZ doomed?!?!
 

Cocoa Beach Bum posted this article from Australia...

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/t...809-2rleu.html


"Tada confirmed to Drive he is already developing the concept for a successor, and hinted that it could be a radically different car, potentially dropping the boxer engine altogether - which raises questions about Subaru's involvement and whether there will be follow-up to the sister BRZ."

Uh oh...http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif Could the BRZ be another footnote in Subaru's history, like the Brat, XT, SVX and Baja?

A 2.5 NA engine producing 250hp could be interesting though.

maybe subaru will have it's own engine in the BRZ and Toyota has their own in the GT-86. That would be interesting to see

That's going to be a lot of wasted R&D for Subaru if they don't have plans to continue selling the BRZ. My guess is that you'll start seeing the 86/FRS and BRZ begin to take their own route, but I think not even Subaru/Toyota knows at this point. I think it will depend on sales. Look at the S2000. The car was practically the same for 10 years.

Anything is possible. But we are not talking about 2-3 years from now. We are talking a good 5+ years from now. If Subaru feels that offering a 2 door RWD sports car is part of their plans and it is selling well and attracting buyers to the showroom floors, we will most likely see the BRZ live on, regardless of what Toyota decides.

Right and the RX-8 was an 8 year platform. I could see the BRZ being an 8-10 year platform with a major refresh somewhere around year 4.

Sales will ultimately determine it's fate. There is going to be lots of competition in the 2 door RWD space in the immediate future with lots of major refreshes/reboots from the likes of Ford, Chevy, Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda etc.

OMFG....enough already....I'll give some form of fucks when I see shit on show room floors.... /rant that also applies to every other thread like this…sry OP….now that’s off my chest.

This^

But honestly, I won't be surprised if the BRZ goes away after 6-8 years.

I do hope that Toyota uses this momentum to build a successor that comes to the US market and badge it as a Celica or Supra, as long as they keep the rear wheel drive.

damn dude, calm the tits. Don't read it if you don't like it lol simple as that. No harm in having multiple posts, some people just haven't even seen it lol :happy0180:

R&D was mostly paid for by Toyota from what has been said. The Brat, Baja, VT, and SVX managed a 6 year run average on our shores, with the Baja only lasting 3 or 4. Not saying Subaru would pull out if Toyota went away, but I don't see Subaru selling over 10k BRZs/year. And that might not pay for its existence. Especially if Toyota puts 2 or 3 sportscars on the market at the same time, which is also rumored. A 250hp model might help in its survival.

I hate to say it, but maybe the BRZ was just a "bridge" car for Subaru until the next gen WRX can get on its feet.

Nothing to be sorry about. Saw the story and thought I would put it out there. It is interesting though.

This IS a Subaru motor after all with slight tweaks from Toyota in DI & NA. If anything Subaru has the upper hand in improving the twins just because mechanically, the car was designed by Subaru. Toyota did the exterior styling, so if the partnership were to end, the BRZs would get more uglier and the Scions/Toyotas would lose the boxer engine and therefore the low center of gravity. IMO it hurts Toyota more than Subaru if they were to split.

They should just end production of the BRZ now!

Whatever, I have a BRZ right now and I love it.

I don't see this car as a bridge car at all to a WRX. I was not shopping for a WRX at all because I wanted a true RWD 2 door sports car. Not a heavier four door AWD car. The next FT86 is not 2-3 years away. It is most likely at least 5+ years away.

Toyota has talked about having three sports car on the market. Entry level RWD car in the $20-25K range, the FT86 platform around $25-30K, and a Supra which will be most likely in the $40K start range.

dont the new FXTs use the FA20 engine?

Yes they use turbocharged FA20's.

Actually, Toyota built the prototype, then sold the idea to Subaru to build it for them. We don't know what the agreement is or who owns the "rights". Did you read the article, Toyota doesn't seem to worried about the COG...

"Tada admitted was an option.
"The boxer [engine] has benefit for low centre of gravity, but [we will develop the] concept for the next generation car first and then we will look at best possible options to fit," he said."

I know a few people that went in looking to buy a Forester, Impreza, or WRX and drove away a BRZ. Just because you weren't looking doesn't mean Subaru didn't see the BRZ as a way to keep the waning excitement up as they developed the next WRX.

And I have to ask you too...did you read the article?

"Tetsuya Tada, has finally admitted his team is developing a number of ways to increase performance of the showroom version; one of which will definitely make it to production when the 86receives its mid-life upgrade in 2015."

I don't follow Toyota, but Subaru has a habit of doing a refresh after 2 or 3 years, sometimes with an engine change ala the WRX.

Yes, I read the article. The refresh will be in 2015. The new concept where Toyota could drop the boxer and go for a radically different FT86 would be another 3 years or more after that.

This is not happening anytime soon. Most of this is nothing more than speculation. Yes, Subaru and Toyota COULD dissolve their partnership in 5+ years, or they COULD keep it intact. More and more companies are doing partnerships when it comes to sports cars to minimize R&D. So if the FT86 continues to sell well for both Toyota and Subaru, I could see the partnership lasting.

As far as BRZ sales hurting other Subaru sales, I have yet to see any hard proof. Impreza sales last year broke records. Subaru, as a whole, is having another record year in 2013. While it is true that some people may opt to buy a BRZ over an Impreza, I don't think Subaru cares since you are still buying a Subaru. The BRZ also brings people to the store. They may come in looking for a 2 door sports car and end up buying an Imperza/WRX or other vehicle with 4 doors and more legroom.

It is going to come down to sales and demand for 2 doors RWD sports coupes. If the demand is there, Subaru will keep making the cars.

No, they use the FB architecture that the FA was based off.

Not according to Tada. He says they already have several prototype variants.

If Toyota decides they are going their own way and it appears they are already testing alternatives to the BRZ, I don't see the BRZ lasting another 5 years with out the Toyota sales.

I don't think it is hurting sales to other Subarus either the numbers don't lie.

I don't think Subaru would even consider keeping the car if they can't sell at least 10,000 a year.

Toyota owns a big piece of Subaru, they bought out GM's share. This is not just a joint venture.

The BRZ chassis is so obviously capable of handling big power I can't see Toyota abandoning the chassis. Not much would be required to stretch it a bit, make it a full 2+2 and stick some big power up front. The engine bay is way too big for that tiny boxer that's in there now. It would even be feasible to stick a rear transaxle under the trunk floor if really big power were wanted.

Your confusing quotes. He has prototype engines for the refresh (2015) model year. The car itself will still look much the same and be built in a Subaru plant with mostly Subaru parts. The current FT86 is not being killed off in 2 years for a new model, it will be a model refresh.

The other quote Tada made was that they are building concepts for the next generation FT86, where he alludes that the car may not have a Subaru Boxer engine, but none of this is certain.


Toyota won't be going their own way in two years though. If they decided to, again, it would be much further down the line when they completely revamp the FT86 platform. A refresh FT86 in 2015 is not going to be an entirely new car from the ground up. It will most likely offer another engine alternative to the current one (think TRD/STi model) and the car will still be assembled in a Subaru plant.

You are reading into this too much and mixing up what was said.

Exactly. And remember, Subaru could make and sell more BRZ's than they do now, they are simply limited to production.

They are not selling 10K a year now (at least in the US). That was never their intention. They make more than 10K a year now, but most of the models produced go to Toyota.

If they drop the Boxer engine and it's got a setup similar to the S2K with room for a turbo. I'd seriously consider buying one. I'm not a fan of this engine from a DIY maintenance standpoint.

No it's definitely an FA20 with a turbo on the bottom, Quirt Crawford showed pictures on FB.

....

Evidence pls. They are externally identical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Forester#Engines

It is the FA20
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/f...irst-look.html

IMO the most likely scenario is that they will try and see cost of production of a larger displacement Boxer engine (new generation), 2.5 is my guess. If that is still costly effective to develop and produce they will go for it, since the "low gravity" formula of GT 86 is working so great and that's one of the aspects that gets praised the most by reviewers and articles. Which translates in sales.

I think Toyota will only consider going for an inline 4 cylinder if it's too expensive to R&D a larger displacement boxer. That being said, it's not bad at all. Look at the Civi Si, it uses the 2.4 inline of the Accord, of course tuned for performance and works great. Specially for aftermarket FI.

Regardless I don't think it's remotely a possibility that Subaru will be left out of this project. Subaru brought a lot of prestige and respect to this platform, and even if Toyota takes over designing the power train for the next generation, it's still Subaru the one that did such a great job for the most praised attributes of this car, which are handling, chassis, suspension and overall feel of how the car drives.

The way I see it, Subaru and Toyota worked together on this car, but I believe each company gave in to compromises it wouldn't have otherwise taken.

The most glaring is the engine. Toyota needed the boxer engine to keep the engine as low as possible. Remember pedestrian safety laws - that hood line can't go that low with an I4. Subaru likely didnt want the D4S. Before the twins came out, Toyota said "about 200hp", and Subaru said "under 300". And 200 IS under 300. But reading between the lines and some other quotes of power from Subaru lead interviews - Subaru's got a mill ready to drop in with 280hp. I bet Toyota said "no", and is making them shelf that motor until they're ready to split the twins apart and give each company a green light to develop as they wish.

Think of the relationship kinda like the Firebird and Camaro were. (Each had a basic structure that was defined and then Pontiac and Chevy made it however they wanted, including different engines, until the 90's.)


Think of this: a 280hp BRZ STi. For $35k. What would SCION have to offer to compete with that in the States? Globally, the Toyota brand could probably handle a GT86 with a 25% price bump, but not Scion. And at those levels of power, lightweight, and price - it could compete with the new Supra Toyota is planning. Subaru's not part of that project. Toyota has to keep the twins under control until it has all 3 RWD sports cars in its line up.

I predict Toyota and Subaru split paths with the twins for either a mid model or second gen.

Toyota only owns around 37% (less?) of Subaru. They don't control them.

We need to kill this man! :mad0260:

The Drive article is sensationalistic. It went from:

to claiming that increased performance "will definitely make it to production when the 86 receives its mid-life upgrade in 2015."

As far as the claim that Toyota might be "potentially dropping the boxer engine altogether" goes, Tada's exact quote is:

At least Drive put in the word "potentially" before the word "dropping", but it's still a bit misleading.

As far as a hybrid goes, Drive somehow got from:

to claiming "it is almost certain the hybrid system Toyota is currently working on will make its way into the next-generation 86".

And the best has to be Drive's claim (without any sort of supporting quote) that this supposed next generation 86 hybrid "is unlikely to be a conventional, and heavy, battery pack but rather a road-going development of the super capacitor system".

Uhuh. Super capacitors have been discussed for cars since the Honda JVX concept in the 1990s. They're still expensive, discharge quickly, and have poor energy density... it'll be a while before they filter down from Toyota's Le Mans program to a reasonably priced production car like the FT86.

They own 16%. I don't think they said anything about abandoning the chassis. It might be their car. Like I have said, we don't know who owns the "Rights". Since it was their idea and their prototype, it might very well be their car.

The BRZ & FR-S are selling well and took several years of R&D and they're not going away anytime soon.

Toyota won't split off because then they'd have to build a factory for gt-86/fr-s production. Thats just cost prohibitive.

When your talking 25% price increase you jump up to stiffer competition. Toyota knew for this to be successful it needed to remain under 30k. For 35-40k I don't know if I would go this over some other cars

I believe it will gain 10hp/4tq. That's what happen with the RSX. They will not ditch the 2.0L or go F/I I bet. They will find a way to up the redline a little higher and that's it.

Well put. And from what I've read, Subaru makes more 86/FRS then they do BRZ's...so to me it sounds like Toyota has a good deal

????

What DYI were you thinking of?

All you can really do on these modern engines is change the oil and the air filter. Both of these tasks are super simple on these new gen Subie engines.

Plugs no longer need changing very often.

Anything else?

Most of these rumors published are bunk, I hate that this kind of stuff is taken seriously.