Lightest Brakes or BBK?
 

This will be one of the later mods I do, but I'm so ignorant on the subject, I thought I'd go ahead and start researching now. I read somewhere on here where some guy was throwing together his own big brake kit from various components. Like one brand of rotor + a different brand caliper, and so on.

So I'm wondering what is the lightest possible combination, regardless of heat tolerance and stopping power. Not that those aspects aren't equally important as weight reduction, but I don't want to be overwhelmed with too many variables just yet. My plan is to learn what's light first, then amongst the lightest of components, research which parts are known to be poor performers and which are excellent performers.

I will start doing my own tracking down of weight numbers, but hopefully we can get some insight from experts, which I certainly am not. I'd like to make this thread as rich as my Lightest Exhaust, Headers, and Front/Over/Mid Pipes thread.

Unsprung weight, son!

Here are all the stock weights stolen from the Official Component Weights & Weight Reduction Thread:


Weights listed are per corner.

Complete BBK Kits

Front:
31.2lbs - OEM (Source)
21.0lbs - AP Sprint kit (Source)
16.7lbs - Wilwood BBK for WRX (Source)



Calipers

Front:
7.8lbs - OEM (Source)
7.4lbs - AP Racing Formula Big Brake Kit (Source)
5.4lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper + bracket) (Source)
~5lbs - Ksport ProComp 8 Pot Front (Source)
~5lbs - Ksport ProComp 6 Pot Front (Source)
4.8lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper only) (Source)

Rear:
5.4lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper + bracket) (Source)
~5lbs - Ksport ProComp 4 Pot Rear (Source)
4.8lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper only) (Source)
2.8lbs - OEM (Source)



Rotors

Front:
18.2lbs - AP Racing Formula Big Brake Kit (Source)
17.0lbs - OEM (Source)
12.2lbs - AP Racing CP3862 "Sprint" (ring + hat + hardware) (Source)
11.2lbs - AP Racing CP3862 "Sprint" (ring only) (Source)

Rear:
13.2lbs - OEM (Source)



Pads

Front:
1.8lbs - OEM (Source)

Rear:
0.8lbs - OEM (Source)

Apparently OEM calipers weigh 7.8lbs, and the OEM front discs weigh ~17.2lbs. I got this info from this page: http://ft86speedfactory.com/ap-racin...e-kit-743.html

I think the consensus is if you are going to track your car a good amount a BBK will over time be more economical as well as providing the weight savings. I too am looking at brakes but until my commute is not 50 miles/day year round I don't want to get BBK and have it eaten by road salt :(

Yes, I've read this too, but it seems like you'd have to go through a LOT of pads... er... rather... would have gone through a lot of OEM-style pads before you'd come anywhere close to breaking even financially, considering a full BBK costs thousands of dollars. Your best chance of making yourself (or maybe the wife) feel better by saying "it was an economical decision" is to get one ASAP to cut down on the number of small pad purchases.

foreveralone...

AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper: 5.4lbs (Caliper + bracket)
AP Racing CP3862 "Sprint" rotor: 11.2lbs (ring only), 12.2lbs (ring + hat + hardware)
AP Racing CP3908 "Endurance" rotor: 16.4lbs (ring only), 17.6 lbs (ring + hat + hardware)

The AP Racing Calipers and rotor setups use a 21mm pad (16mm pad material) vs the 15mm pad (10mm pad material) of the stock setup and many BBKs. Additionally, these setups use 32mm thick rotors, instead of 28mm thick rotors of many common BBKs (e.g. Stoptech).

Anyone local is welcome to stop by our shop and hold these parts in their hands to see how light they are.

Sprint template: http://www.essexparts.com/media/down...eltemplate.pdf
Endurance template: http://www.essexparts.com/media/down...eltemplate.pdf


Yeah, we love our setup. We have a long term (1 year) review coming soon. :D

By our math, discounting any equity you have in a used BBK, based our rates of consumption (Rotor vs pad), by the time you go through 2 sets of race pads and 1 set of rotors on the Essex "Sprint" BBK, you'd have gone though 6-7 sets of OEM sized race pads, and likely 6-7 sets of rotors.

220 (average brake pad cost for AP CP8350) x2 + 158 x2 = 796 for brakes for ~25 track days
210 (average brake pad cost for stock caliper) x6 + 110 x12 = 2580 for brakes for ~25 track days with OEM brakes

These figures don't include the brake fluid you're going to have to change more often with the OEM brakes, or the labor (or time) you have to put into constantly swapping pads and rotors.

This is why we decided to get a BBK very early in our BRZ's life. Initially, we saw the WRX front brakes and thought the car may have been adequately braked from the factory, but it turns out that even with the lower weight and power output compared to the WRX, the brakes were still insufficient when it came to reducing operating cost.

We were, however, successful in preventing fade on track by stepping up to extremely aggressive compounds with the stock brake rotors, but this is not ideal. I do this on my personal s2k, and I've gone through at LEAST 40+ rotors and 20+ sets of brake pads. If only getting a BBK to fit on a s2k were easy...

I see that the calipers can be used on the front or rear, but how about the rotors?

Those are some fun facts. I'm glad I was so wrong about how long it would take.

With the appropriate hat and an e-brake delete, I don't see why they can't.

Please do keep in mind that those rotors are directional.

Our rate of brake consumption is far higher than that of a novice driver, whos brake usage will be a lot slower. I'd expect to hit similar consumption rates as us once you have a few years of experience, unless you're getting coached (in which case rate of improvement, as well as rate of consumption will he heavily accelerated).

I think the record for a single customer for the FR-S/BRZ is 6 sets of race pads in the last year already. We did advise him, as well as other regulars, to get a BBK for long term savings...

Well then, should I delete the "front" and "rear" groups from the rotor section in the OP? Because wouldn't that mean any rotor could be used on the front and rear? Or would it be be better to leave as is?

I mean if the company markets them as front or rear only, it seems like I should keep them separated here. On the other hand, if it's common knowledge that rotors can easily be made to work on either end, then maybe I should just have one list of rotors instead of dividing them up into front and rear. I'm a super noob when it comes to big brake kits.

I'd recommend leaving them separated as front and rear; while the rings *can* be used in the rear, the hats to do so have not been designed.

So both the rotors you listed are marketed as front rotors?

Correct! They're also specific to the CP8350 caliper, although they can theoretically be used with any caliper that can reasonable accommodate a 32mm-width rotor.

Does your math account for any brake cooling with the stock brakes. I haven't seen many accounts of people running brake ducts. How does that change the equation?

huh? What is the $110x12 line? Are you doing front and rear rotors with stock brakes, but only front rotors with the BBK?

I'm paying about $190/set for front race pads (Hawk or Carbotech) and $40/rotor for front rotors (Centric premium).

1 set of rotors for the BBK, 6 sets of rotors for the OEM calipers.

This is front only, and using OEM rotors. Centric Premiums crack rather quickly when used with the aggressive pads necessary to prevent fade when I drive...

Ducts for a setup like that will prevent fade, but not really extend life. Under less rigorous use, they will improve brake life as well.

Depending on the wheel/tire setup, ducting may be a bit difficult to put in...

Thanks for putting this list together OP. :clap:

Perhaps @JRitt can fill in some of the blanks for the AP Racing kits. There are four different AP kits for the front and one for the rear.

The Formula kit you have listed above, is that the 6 piston, or 4?

I will be doing the smaller of the two formula kits when I can find it in my budget. Rims first though. I was hoping to have the formula kit this summer, but it's looking more and more like next spring.

6. The 4 piston caliper weighs closer to ~5lbs and I don't recall the rotor weight off hand.

EDIT: Here they are

http://www.essexpartsblog.com/news/N...-brake-systems

5.86lbs for the caliper. Bracket will add some weight.


http://www.essexparts.com/shop/compl...43mm-disc.html
"The aluminum disc hats have a natural anodized finish, and the complete disc assembly weighs in at only 13.8 lbs."

If you want light mine were only 16.7lbs for rotors and calipers:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32594

I have a set of stock rears at home that I can weigh for you after work. Discs and calipers. I do remember the rear calipers feeling very light.

These will be the same spec as the US cars and the ones off the upper spec models outside of the US. Just thought I'd mention that for clarity.

In terms of weight reduction, our front Sprint Kit is the way to go. It is one of the lightest options available, saving 10 lbs. per front corner. It is also the most fully designed/developed, and integrates perfectly with the FT86. When piecing together a brake kit, it takes time, money, and know-how. We look at our Sprint Kit as having already accomplished what the OP is attempting to do. We went through the AP Racing parts bin, selected the lightest components that would still get the job done for heavy use by 95% of our potential customers (the other 5% can buy our Endurance Kit), and properly & thoroughly designed a brake kit that is a breeze to bolt up to the car. I've seen many, many customers over the years buy bits and pieces, and piece them together on the car. In most cases it's time consuming, frustrating, and what they end up with is never quite as effective as a fully produced kit such as the one we're selling. In many cases, they just sell off all the bits and buy our kit in the end. They almost always tell me, "I should have just bought your kit in the first place." Piecing together a quality kit can be done, but it's usually far more work than people initially realize. That's my main point.

As for the rear brakes, you run into diminishing returns. We took a long hard look at a lightweight rear solution, but you're fighting a few things. The OEM rear caliper is lighter than the front, so there's not a lot of weight to save short of going with a tiny two piston opposed caliper. The OEM disc is heavy in back, but it is a drum in hat parking brake. That means if you want to keep the parking brake (which 95% of our customers do), then you have to use a disc with an ID large enough to clear the parking brake. We looked at what could design and produce, but determined that A) There aren't enough people willing to ditch their parking brake, and B) The kit would likely cost more to produce than our front kit, and most people don't want to pay $2500+ for a rear kit that kills the parking brake. Therefore we recommend putting on some rear SS lines, pads, and calling it a day.

As for running costs and the value of a big brake kit, I came up with a two year payoff. If you plan to keep your car and track it for two years or more, you ultimately will save money by buying our Sprint Kit vs. running OEM-sized equipment. I've recently had a number of customers buy our Sprint Kit who said they've been tracking their OEM-style brake parts over the past year, and it's adding up fast. The pads are more expensive in the OEM shape vs. our kit's pad shape, and they're 50% thinner (see pics below)! Since they're running on a smaller, thinner, less-efficient OEM type disc, they're also running much hotter. That means you're burning up more expensive pads at a much faster rate. To top it off, our pad shape comes in every flavor under the sun, so you have more pad compound choices depending on your intended usage. Check out this blog post I did on Big Brake Kit benefits you may not have considered. Thanks.

Here is the pad in our Sprint Kit with a 15mm thick friction puck. Below it is the OEM pad, which only has a 10mm thick friction puck. Despite being 50% thicker, the pads for our kit are cheaper than the OEM shape!
http://www.essexpartsblog.com/media//P8071837.JPG
http://www.essexpartsblog.com/media//P8071836.JPG


Here is the OEM disc vs. the disc in our Sprint Kit. Now which one of these do you think runs cooler and lasts longer?!?!
http://www.essexpartsblog.com/media//FrBRZDiscVsAP2.jpg

Finally, here are the final weight differences for our entire brake corner vs. OEM. Top is stock, bottom is our Sprint Kit...just over 10 lbs. per side.
http://www.essexpartsblog.com/media//OESystemweight.jpg
http://www.essexpartsblog.com/media/...tkitweight.jpg


These are my experiences after selling big brake kits to thousands of customers over the past 10 years! Hopefully these thoughts will save you some time, stress, and money.:happy0180:

I have all of the OEM brake component weights with pics in my "official component weights and weight reduction" thread...they're on the first page.:happy0180:

That's a good point. Most of our Sprint Kit customers are running without a brake duct cooling kit, and aren't having any temperature related issues. That saves a few hundred $ vs. buying a duct setup to run with the OEM brakes. A duct kit would also add weight, a bit of complication/potential for problems (those hoses tear, kink, slip off, etc.), and you likely have to kill or relocate your wiper washer bottle to install ducts.

What makes it hard on the S2k? Combination of wheel offset of running 255 squared tires?

Ultra high offset, which leads to bbk unfriendly face designs.

17x9 +63 is the most common size used...

Dat....convex?

Amen...Wheel fitment is horrendous on the S2k. I've been part of the design process on probably several hundred different big brake kit applications over the years, and the S2000 is one of the absolute worst in terms of wheel fit.

People have no idea how excited we get when we discover a wheel that clears the S2k's Sprint kit...

Dat clearance!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...73816691_n.jpg

Muchly appreciated. I didn't get a chance to weight mine last night.:thanks:

Ok, I just updated the OP with all this new information. I didn't get online much yesterday, so I didn't get around to it. Looks a lot better now though! Let me know if I made any mistakes.

Something that's pretty hard to find but could be the next big thing is aluminum brakes that are either composite reinforced or steel clad. Given the same heat capacity you could shed over half the weight because aluminum conducts heat better and has higher heat capacity.

However no one makes these except for McLaren, BMW? (maybe a few more ultra luxury cars) and these sketchy looking guys: http://litebrake.com/ (can buy their rotors on Ebay, not sure what they'll fit)

It's only a matter of time before carbon, ceramic brakes are going to be available... Not just for expensive exotics anymore..

Thats an interesting concept. i wouldn't want to be their guinea pig. They use the alloy wheel as a heatsink instead on having a vented rotor...

LOL what do you mean?

Wait is that sarcastic?
They seem to have a real product, but 230 is a lot for one rotor and their 10% fuel economy and double pad life thing reeks of bullshit marketing.

However the multiple material rotor construction is certainly interesting. I wonder if you could make the middle part off vented rotors aluminum with steel reinforcement (high temperature coping measures) for maximum heat capacity to mass ratio.

Yes. Their website appears to be 103% sketchy, even though it's probably mostly Internet Explorer's fault, as Internet Explorer isn't compatible with the internet.

@CSG Mike and @JRitt, what do you recommend for a setup in the back to pair up with the AP kit?

Nevermind, JRitt, I just remembered you covered it in your post above. Thanks!
@CSG Mike, have any different recommendations, or would you recommend this same route?

@JRitt's recommendation is what we followed, and it's worked GREAT for us.

Remember that you can always alter brake bias a bit by staggering the compounds, but unless you're doing the pedal dance (see my sig), Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD) will kick in and try to assist in slowing the car as quickly as possible in heavy braking secenarios.

We recommend using similar compounds front/rear with the Sprint kit.

On the basis of weight alone regardless of thermal factors robi spec has posted of his setup with a large amount of weight dropped.

Also, theres wilwood kits, a "specific" f&r kit. Though rotor thickness may be an issue in some situations.

and atleast one person here is using what may have been a bit smaller wrx kit which may be the following link

http://ft86speedfactory.com/wilwood-...fdf8307f8abeb3

Also stumbled across this earlier today when i ended up on the p&l page.


http://pandlmotorsports.com/shop/pl-...ght-brake-kit/

Doesn't make mention of parking brake, and clearly the thermal performance would be lacking many situations.

But it would be light and that is the thread title.

Tarox B32 brake kit (front axle)
Discs (2-part; 326 mm x 30 mm): 8.7kg
Adapter: 0.5kg
Caliper without pads: 2.2kg
Caliper with pads: 3.1kg