Moto IQ tests the KW V3...
 

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...ith-Nitto.aspx

Thoughts?

As usual, @robispec shows that a well set up car is FAST.

That shows 2 things:

1. Tire compound is the #2 difference in going fast (after driving skill).

2. It's important to look at the full system. You can't just slap on parts and expect to be faster. Set-up is HUGE.

Choosing appropriate spring rates for the tires you're using is a pretty big deal. Dialing in alignment and damper settings (especially on a 2 way like KW V3) can have a huge effect on laptimes as well. I'd love to know if they played with either of those in their testing or if they were still using the same settings for both sets of tires.

Goes back to something Moto-P said on here about using stiff coilover spring rates on stock tires...you're gonna have a bad time. You're easily overloading the tires and could end up with less grip than you started with.

- Andy

I wonder why they didn't do a lap with the NITTOs installed on the stock car to isolate the effect of the KW V3s? :iono:

A magazine tested one stock, stock + V3's (with an alignment) and stock + V3's and 245/40 RS3's.

V3's alone were 1.5 seconds faster than stock, with RS3's it picked up another 3 seconds per lap.

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-13...e/viewall.html

Simply an example of someone who doesn't understand how to properly setup a car...

i have a hard time believing that these aftermarket companies are much better than toyobaru when it comes to suspension setup, at least for real world driving.

i could see doing something like this if i were trailering the car to the track every weekend, but the stock suspension on the twins is pretty damn good. probably the best thing about the car in stock form. why mess with the good parts when there are so many other things that need more immediate attention (like the complete lack of acceleration)?

i learned my lesson once buying multi-thousand dollar suspension bits. it seems everyone that reviews them on forums doesn't want to admit that they're not good enough to tell the damn difference. top dollar ohlins stuff, just felt stiffer to me. i'm not a race car driver, but then most of us aren't.

my point is that based on my experience, i wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that there was little real improvement if any. hell even the better example sited below suggests that tires (which you'll be needing at some point anyway) are twice as effective as $2k+ coilovers.

i have a hard time believing that these aftermarket companies are much better than toyobaru when it comes to suspension setup, at least for real world driving.

i could see doing something like this if i were trailering the car to the track every weekend, but the stock suspension on the twins is pretty damn good. probably the best thing about the car in stock form. why mess with the good parts when there are so many other things that need more immediate attention (like the complete lack of acceleration)?

i learned my lesson once buying multi-thousand dollar suspension bits. it seems everyone that reviews them on forums doesn't want to admit that they're not good enough to tell the damn difference. top dollar ohlins stuff, just felt stiffer to me. i'm not a race car driver, but then most of us aren't.

my point is that based on my experience, i wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that there was little real improvement if any. hell even the better example sited below suggests that tires (which you'll be needing at some point anyway) are twice as effective as $2k+ coilovers.

Did you have them properly installed, cornerbalanced, and dialed in for you?

The dialing in part seems to be the HARDEST part to get done. There are a scant handfull of shops that offer a service to dial in dampers at a consumer level; we're one of them.

Not at all. I had an alignment done afterwards, and fiddled with the damping adjusters a bunch, but to be honest it just felt stiffer to me. This is on a miata. Its not that the car handled any worse, just that it was a lot less comfortable and really did more harm than good to the daily fun factor.

I understand there's a whole voodoo science behind suspension tuning and some guys can do awesome things with it, but Im not one of them.

You are saying that your car doesn't move. What is wrong with it?

Car ownership is not 100% rational decision making. If someone thinks that fitting $700 Ebay special coilovers is the best thing ever then that's what they think. I track my car. The suspension upgrade alone has made a slight improvement to my lap time; I know full well I am the weakest link in the equation. Now, I get kick out of the fact that I have aftermarket suspension fitted. I like the firmer (not crashy) ride. When I talk to people I get ego stroked when I tell them what I have done to my car BUT it makes no difference in the long run because I am not racing; it makes no difference what lap times I post. There is only my ego involved when I can say I am faster than you.

This is part of car ownership.

I lowered my car cause I didn't like gap. If that's all it did I'm fine with that 100%. It doesent always have to be about expectations of an entirely different car does it?

Nice try but the article as-is strikes me as being inconclusive or even misinformation as far as the coilovers go since their setup changes were all over the place. Given their level of technical know-how I expect much better things from MotoIQ.

If they really want to publish an article claiming to test the coilovers they ought to have at least put in the effort to do the thing as a proper, scientific test:

- Upgrade the brakes first in order to rule them out as a factor.
- Set a lap time in a bone stock car.
- Set a lap time in a bone stock car with tires alone (and no janky staggered setups)
- Set a lap time in a bone stock car with coilovers alone.
- Set a lap time in a bone stock car with coilovers and tires.

Even so, stuff like alignment and fine tuning the damper settings (which is a big part of a 2 way adjustable damper after all) would play a part not to mention tire pressure, tire temp and tire wear. Lots of factors to consider. Still, with some proper controls in place it could have at least been a pseudo-scientific test.

I don't even own V3s so it's not like I'm some butthurt fanboy here either.

Running a square tire on a staggered wheel setup and 225's on a 9.5 screams I'm here to do science.

I thought MotoIQ was a bit more thorough than this, but I guess I was buying into the hype that they knew what they were doing before now. This article was clearly lip service to a few brands, yay sponsors.

Everything is a balance though... once you run stickier tires you need more spring rate to keep the chassis under control and stay off the bump stops in corners.

On a pure street car, you're right, but for a car that sees dual duty you have to balance things out.

agreed. i know for my purposes (and probably 95% of people out there) the money would've been better spent on something else. i don't disagree that there is a benefit for some, i just believe that demographic is a lot smaller than some think. just bolting stuff on is of little help to anything, and can do more harm than good. it certainly did for me.

i think this article just illustrates that point.

that's kinda my point: it's more about conspicuous consumption than it is about improving vehicle dynamics, for most people. i've fallen prey to that before, and it basically resulted in a bunch of burnt money and a car that didn't ride well. ymmv, but i think most people fit in that camp.

This whole point is why I would suggest springs or height only adjustable coilovers instead of fully adjustable coilovers to almost everyone.

I personally want Tarmac II's eventually, but they'll be set up by a local shop that has a great reputation with suspension work (height, corner balancing, alignment, etc). I know enough to know that I don't know enough about suspension tuning to do it totally alone.

i think i'm going to go with the new st's. hopefully i can't mess that up if they're not adjustable :)

I'll go a bit further off-topic with you guys.. I had a number of different (mostly adjustable) suspensions setups on my WRX and none of them ever really made me any faster. The best I found, certainly bang for the buck, was STi takeoffs. Tires, sway bars and alignments made a positive, tangible difference, but it turns out playing with spring rates and struts isn't something I'm good at.

And, in fact, I made so many changes to damper settings at events that I think I was probably doing more bad than good. At my first event in the BRZ (after a 5 year hiatus from autox) I had my tire pressure gauge, infrared thermometer and sprayer all ready to go. After my first run I took tossed them all of to the side and decided to leave my tires alone and just concentrate on driving.

We offer damping adjustment services :)

What's involved in that? Are you just looking at spring rates or do you ride with or drive the car? That would probably be the way for me to go but I'll be sticking with the stock struts until I can't help but spend the money. :)

Damper adjustment would be just that: adjusting the dampers as best as we can, given the existing setup.

We don't offer adjustment for 1-way dampers; it's simply not justified when the suspension lacks proper adjustments to really match compression and rebound to the springs chosen. With a 1 way damper, there's typically only 1 "right" spring, and everything else will end up over or under damped.

We would be riding in or driving the car; the adjustments are done based on feel. Our butt dynos are pretty well calibrated ;)

The most common response we get when people ride in our car, or cars that we set up, is that the ride is so smooth. They're always surprised that the spring rates we typically use in our applications are so high because the ride would indicate otherwise.

But that's the best part! Trial and error, applying theories and seeing it in the real world, etc. :thumbup:

They lost me in the article when they used staggered wheels for looks.
Been having this debate with cars for years.

Tires and driver make the biggest difference with most cars. The FR-S/BRZ it's the biggest difference. Probably less than 10% of people who buy suspension setups have them properly "tuned" to actually go faster on a track. And what is good for a track is rarely if ever good for the street and vice versa.

Drive more, change less.

As mentioned setting up suspensions is so often driver dependent getting the "right" setup is like chasing fairies.

Aaron's a pretty solid driver... he's spent some time in the CSG BRZ, as well as Robispec's car.

Was he faster in those cars?

Different tracks, but if you normalize the time to the track, far faster.