How cheap would the factory ~250hp 86/FRS/BRZ need to be for you to trade in?
 

This 86/FRS/BRZ is great, but I've been willingly spending a lot of money on upgrades without any real improvement in performance (I'm talking HP). The idea of spending ~$5000+ on either a SC or turbo is an interesting idea, but I'm probably too much of a wuss to pull the trigger because I don't want to void my warranty. But if either Toyota, Scion, or Subaru came out from the factory with a 250hp version of their car for $30K, I would seriously consider trading in my FRS for a new upgrade. I understand we're just talking about hypotheticals here since we'd likely not see a FI-version from factory anytime soon, but what is your maximum $ threshold for trading in your current twin for a super 250hp twin from the factory?

Take your pick of an FI choice, find its price, double it + 25% now add that to the most expensive version of the car brand of your choice (BRZ ltd, gt86 blah blah, FRS 10 edition) and that will be the cost of a factory 250whp version of your 86.

So for a BRZ it would be around 40k USD.

I would not trade my BRZ in for another 50 hp, no matter the price.

How did you come up with those two highly scientific fudge factors of 2x and 25%? Wouldn't Toyota/Subaru have some advantages in economies of scale?

Development, parts and profit margin, look at the difference between a wrx and an STI, it's about 10-12k, more HP = more heat, so oil cooler, bigger breaks, bigger tires, new rims, new PVC system, new headers, or new intake... If you've ever modded a car you know these must change with more HP. Also remember they have to keep the reliability the same... It all costs money. And they need a profit. It's a business not a charity.

@King Tut, maybe 50hp is a bit on the low side (esp compared to your build), but the intent of the poll was really to get the community's sense of value in a factory turbo. On a side note, with the Genesis 2.0T putting out ~270hp we can probably expect something in that ballpark in a factory turbo. :)

32k would be a magic number.

Like others have said such a car would have to come with bigger brakes and cooling along with a mountain of R/D to make sure its reliable. And pass EPA standards

It would also most likely come with a better interior and suspension setup, before you know it itll be 40k.


Subaru/toyota are not just going to slap F/I on to a car and sell it to you on the same suspension/brake/cooling setup as a stock car EVERYTHING would have to be reworked and tested.

I think you have a pretty naive notion (no offense intended) of what it takes to make something like this happen. No way in hell are you going to get a 270hp, 2800lb car for 30~32k, especially from the twins.

Why is that? Well lets look at it from an engineers perspective. First and foremost, a feasibility study has to happen to make sure a project like this would not only be economically feasible but have a chance of being profitable. This is most likely where this idea would be shut down by any smart project manager. Why is that?

Well, first of all you are looking at an already small select portion of a smaller section of a market, the sports car market. You know what is profitable? Corollas, Civics, Cayennes. In fact, for all the 911 die hard fans, what saved Porsche a decade ago was not the Boxster, not the 996 911, it was the Cayenne. Because for every mid-life crisis guy looking to test the hair on his chest there are 1000+ A to B drivers. This trend is only continuing as less younger people are driving and of those that are, are looking for something simple, cheap and with navigation and iOS integration. Sports car are very rarely profitable. Sports cars are more traditionally used as marketing exercises with halo cars (ala GTR) and to aid the perception of a company: which is exactly the purpose of the twins. Nobody wants to say I own a car from the most beige, gray, bread and butter company. This is the main reasons manufacturers participate in racing, win on Sunday and sell on Monday.

Either way, there is no doubt that Toyota invested mega-cubic dollars to R&D and develop this car. It's very good, it's been hyped up for over 5 years - coincidentally Toyota had no proper sports cars and was often quoted as being the most bland and boring auto manufacturer (while maintaining #1 profitable spot for many years in NA). My personal bias tells me that Honda has quite decidedly snatched the boring auto leader from Toyota. Regardless, this car was a huge gamble and I'm sure the manufacturer will take a couple years, to hopefully, maybe break even after all the R&D and development; provided the car continues to be relatively popular. Now if you notice, a lot of journalists who have tested the TRD concept (no added power) have come away with the - "Yea its faster...but...it kinda lost that fun, approachable nature". And therein lies the crux! Mind you we are already talking about the miniscule sports car market and how many people in that market truly want to race or something harsh? Maybe 5/100? 5/1000? The same reason the ITR was non successful in the NA market, for every one of the dedicated enthusiasts who wants a race car for the street, 1000's do not and there are no enough of us to fund and offset the costs associated with such a project.

Well why would it be so expensive in your opinion? Full Blown can do it for 4.5k right? As a manufacturer, you have no idea how much red tape is surrounding each car! There is emissions, warranty, reputation, recalls, lawsuits, crash safety standards...etc, etc, etc. The list is endless. Why was the 350z so much heavier than the Rx8, despite being smaller in dimensions? Why is the Genesis so heavy? Torque. Torque brakes everything. You add torque to a car, a car mind you that they want to do no warranty work on for 5 years (because then any chance you have of making profit on the car is gone) and you need to beef up EVERYTHING. Suddenly, you need more clutch, bigger driveshafts, sturdier differential, bigger brakes...etc. Suddenly your turbo twin that was supposed to be a great car, is a 3200lb pig that has not playful spirit of its predecessor and the reason the original twin was selling so well. Boost adds more points of failure, extra heat and you would not believe the amount of testing and iterations that a manufacturer has to go through. You have to test in cold climates up north, in desert climates, in humid climates, for 100k+ and the entire time you are paying engineers, drivers...etc. Then you have to apply for emissions, tune for economy..etc. All those development costs are then passed unto the consumer. Suddenly the guy's who were shouting and crying for more power are backing away, "Well I would've paid 32k for a 270hp, 2800lb car, but 40k for that pig? Hell no, I would rather tune the base FRS...".

Not to mention the hierarchy within a manufacturer. The BRZ is a light, relatively quick car. Add a bit of power and tire and suddenly its competing and breathing down the neck of the STi and that is something no manufacturer wants.

This is an ENTRY level sports car and it will stay that way, the same reason the miata has been relatively successful. Because for every guy who wants to boost the miata, there are a 1000 who are content driving the car the way it is. You think the mazdaspeed miata was a profitable project? Hell no. That car only added what, 40hp? Via unreliable IHI turbos?

I am one of the guys who tracks and autox's. If I was working for Toyota I would never greenflag a project like this because I have seen this cry wolf scenario before.

No offense taken and in all honesty I wouldn't consider myself too much of a car guy before owning a FRS (and really don't know much about turbos). However, I am an aerospace engineer by profession so I know a bit about requirements, R&D, bringing systems into production, and the cost of testing (and also about government red-tape and politics but that's for another thread on another forum).

Appreciate the long thorough response. I don't think a factory turbo will happen in the coming years (or ever for the twins), but maybe just wishful thinking on my end.

Its kind of interesting the responses to this poll though... you got most people saying they wouldn't trade in their twin and you have others saying it won't happen for less than ~$40K cause of various reasons (reliability, R&D, EPA, etc.), but then if they were to offer it for say $32-35K it sounds like it'd be a steal! Well I guess Toyota/Subaru would need to take in some lessons learned from the S2000 prior to going down that path.

who says it needs to be turbo or supercharged? what if they dropped in a newly developed engine down the road? maybe even increase it to 2.5 liters or something

I wouldn't buy factory forced induction. It's always better to just buy aftermarket from the start, Better components and you don't just end up buying two kits in the end. Lower stock compression would be nice, but pistons and rods are cheaper than depreciation.

I would trade in for a 3.0l boxer 6. They could sell that for quite a bit I think.

I've always said the only other car I would trade this in for would be an AWD version of the same thing. Although, I do love the idea of the flat 6 engine :) I've always liked buying stock cars, because my 2nd favorite thing to do with my car besides drive it, is "work" on it. I will put my own FI in once I can choose a team lol. Recently, now that snow is gone, I love the RWD and don't want the AWD (at least until next winter) but I am hoping to add an additional car to my fleet, to be a winter worthy daily driver. The only car in my mind that MAY tempt me to trade, is this supposed hybrid AWD supra that BMW is helping make/design. BUT, as that's even more of a mystery/unicorn than the innovate supercharger (was, anyway), I will stick with my batmobile, at this point, until the keys are pried from my cold dead fingers :)

TRD supercharger (25k) doubled so 50k x 25% so 62.5k + (brz ltd) 28k...

=

90.5k....


nice math

in relation to the notion of FI... do not forget the fa20DIT already produced and engineered in the forester .... detuned it would work fine in the BRS/FRS only real feasable upgrade required beyond whats offered in that package is an upgraded clutch and cooling...

No extensive R&D required like starting from scratch, just put factory parts on a factory car...

the real problem i see is the "encroaching on the flag ship STI."

This is what i see as being the NO-GO button

Finally someone with some sense on these forums. (I'm an engineer :P)

I tradded in my 2010 twin turbo camaro for my FRS. Knowing the FRS was very slow stock. But it was fun to drive and handled very well. I added some boost and now its faster then my camaro I had. But gets better mpg and I can fit in any parking space. Plus when I beat expensive cars i can say you got beat down by a scion LOL. An 11-12sec car for 33k is not bad in my book. Plus the FRS is very cheap in the maintenance side. When is the last time a light weight rear wheel drive car was built? Alot of people do motor swaps with light weight cars. But the engine in this car is crazy once boost is added. In the end its your decision. How ever I will tell you this if you get rid of this car you are going to mess it.

I don't consider this car light weight...The Lotus Elise and Exige are light wieght...this car is a pig in comparison

I wouldnt be surprised if toyota decided to release a sup'd up version of the FRS/GT86 under the lexus label.

I almost bought the lotus Elise. But when I drove it didn't like the space inside and the seats sat to close together. Plus was hard getting in and out. And my wife said it looked like a bug and the Frs looked way better.

Devil's advocate here:

Remember that economy of scale & shared corporate parts would ultimately keep the price reasonable, IMHO...

I would have paid an additional $10k ($35k), if the car had the upcoming 300bhp 2.0T & all the powertrain related bits that entails, STI brakes, bigger rims/tires, etc.

Now THAT would be a great little performer & excellent bargain...

And most modern cars are going to add several hundred pounds on top of the BRZ. Those are two very spartan specialty cars, far outside the norm.

Subaru has already stated that they have heard the requests for more power and will do something about it. That said, I don't see it costing under $32K.

Some of you guys' attitudes about "how it is in the industry" is just so far off it's comical. By your stated criteria 1/2 the "affordable" sports cars out there right now would never be in existence.

There's no reason to assume that Subaru (or Toyota) wouldn't release a turbocharged model with 300hp (crank) for around $31-32k. The FRS is 25k so you're talking about an additional 5-6k for a more powerful engine (something Subaru is already putting in the Forester) stronger drivetrain components (not difficult to do), revised suspension settings (again easy) and larger brakes (no big deal - do you think a 12.5" rotor costs much more at wholesale than an 11.5" rotor...no it's like pennies on the dollar).

Blah blah blah there's no market for it. Well I'm sure Toyota and Subaru have been taking notice of all the money their customers are pouring into the wallets of aftermarket companies. No doubt they would rather have that money for themselves.

Base WRX = $25,795 MSRP
Base WRX STi = $37,645 MSRP

That is a $12K difference. And from what I experience here, Subaru has no problem selling the STi at all. People are on wait lists. Even if the BRZ was marked up $8-10K for an STi model I suspect demand would outpace supply for years.

No way do I see Subaru selling a true STi BRZ for under $33K MSRP. I mean they could if it just had some minor performance upgrades, but if you are talking turbo/supercharger with enhanced suspension, tires, ECU, tranny, etc... Like I said, even if it only cost them $3K in parts and labor, they are going to mark it up a ton because of the demand.

Link please (:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...ting-boss.html

Now you could take the "faster version" quote and equate that to some minor updates to tires, suspension, air intake, exhaust and get a "faster version" for $5K or so markup. That is possible, but based on Subaru's history of the WRX STi, I would expect more than 10-20hp increase.

I feel like that is a poor comparison as the main difference between the two models is the drivetrain. The STI has a complex electronic AWD system and a 6 speed transmission (instead of a 5 speed). Nevermind that all the equipment included on an STI is not on a base WRX. A better comparision would be the WRX Limited ($29,500) against the STI.

And Subaru has no problem selling WRXs (and STIs) because they make a very VERY small amount of them a year. I don't really view that as "selling every one" they make because they are more or less built to order.

Never would trade mine.. Plus it has history... First come back in a very long time ...

If I want more power I would go this route ..
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps05697e91.jpg

Okay, even taking that into account I cannot imagine a scenario where Subaru would sell a BRZ STi for less than $5K more than a BRZ Limited.

Base BRZ Limited MSRP is $28,265 (including destination). +$5K = $33,265 including destination.

And the same rule applies with the BRZ. Subaru would make a small percentage of them in STi form (perhaps order only) and there would be waitlists and markups galore. It would make no sense for Subaru to sell a $30-31K BRZ STi, unless they just added some very basic mods like intake, exhaust, suspension tweaks.

For all of you arguing about cost of development. Yes, there is a steep development cost. Part manufacturing is really cheap though... I work for a major automotive manufacturer, and it's not as bad as you think.

Actual Example:
Steering knuckle for production vehicle manufacturing cost: $5.47

Sold at: $320

I'm not sure I would trade in my car, but if I had the option when new it would have had to be around $35k and had better brakes/wheels/tires to go with the power.

But $35k puts it in the ballpark of a lot of other nice cars.

MSRP on a base 2013 STI is actually $34,295.

Your right, I clicked on the STi Limited :)

I cannot stand the whole "twins" things. And this is getting ridiculous people are starting to act like this is the only car on the market.

This is so true. I don't know why people would think that, but there are many other great cars out there.

Porsche is one of those :bellyroll:

I would buy one. However, it's not going to happen until at least a 2018 version. Even then it's a long shot.

I think people need to appreciate the car for what it is. A well balanced fun to drive rwd sports car.

I did tons of research before I bought the car. I could have gone the more powerful Mustang route, the Camaro route, or hell even a Civic Si that has way more features and was cheaper.

I went with the FRS and never looked back. Why? All those other cars I mentioned are on the roads every day and I can spot one of each during just about every car trip. Even going a mile down the road. I've seen 1 BRZ. The car is original and special. I love it. :party0030: