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-   -   Upper control arms for bulk camber (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38708)

JordanWho 06-09-2013 10:20 AM
Upper control arms for bulk camber
 
I'm setting up my 86 for drift and want to run a lot of camber all the way around. For the rear I have ordered Whiteline camber bushings and Whiteline LCA's/toe arms. After reading various threads on here and other forums it seems adjustment in the upper arm is the way to go. I have found these upper arms and want to ask everyones opinions or if anyone is actually running them / has any experience with Racer X fab work.

http://www.racerxfabrication.com/fr-...rms/index.html

wparsons 06-09-2013 10:34 AM
If I needed camber adjustment I would have a set of those for sure. Depending on which direction I go over the winter I'll probably pick up a set then.

DriftEightSix 06-09-2013 06:53 PM
Racerx is a member on this forum FYI.

I was after a set also but the price has made me have to wait a little longer.

OrbitalEllipses 06-09-2013 07:29 PM
Yeah...$800 for arms that you can't adjust on the car? I appreciate the hard work and design, but no thanks.

SLICVIC 06-10-2013 09:14 AM
OMG WANT. with these, LCA's and camber bushings, we should be able to fit some serious offsets in the rear

JordanWho 06-10-2013 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLICVIC (Post 992694)
we should be able to fit some serious offsets in the rear
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

wparsons 06-10-2013 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 991921)
Yeah...$800 for arms that you can't adjust on the car? I appreciate the hard work and design, but no thanks.
You don't need to worry about the trailing or toe links being adjustable when you run a adjustable UCA instead of LCA, that alone is worth it to me. With a LCA you need to adjust all three links whenever you change the camber setting, not just one.

console_cowboy 06-10-2013 04:39 PM
Quote:
You don't need to worry about the trailing or toe links being adjustable when you run a adjustable UCA instead of LCA, that alone is worth it to me. With a LCA you need to adjust all three links whenever you change the camber setting, not just one.
Check out this lower control arm: http://www.spcperformance.com/index....tion&pid=67660

It only adjusts one point, not all three. The adjustment is on the opposite side of the control arm from most. In additional to that, it comes with a toe arm bushing to get more positive or negative toe.

wparsons 06-10-2013 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by console_cowboy (Post 993649)
Check out this lower control arm: http://www.spcperformance.com/index....tion&pid=67660

It only adjusts one point, not all three. The adjustment is on the opposite side of the control arm from most. In additional to that, it comes with a toe arm bushing to get more positive or negative toe.
Those will still require adjustments to the trailing and toe links if you change the LCA length enough.

The "issue" is that the LCA, trailing link and toe link all work together as a pseudo LCA, and if you change the length of one of them you should change the other two to keep the wheel in the right place.

If you just lengthen the LCA you effect toe and also the longitudinal location of the wheel which effects anti-squat/dive geometry.

That said, small camber changes might not be so detrimental to the rest of the geometry, but if you change it enough it will definitely effect the rest enough that they'll need adjusting too.

SLICVIC 06-10-2013 10:55 PM
what he said^

this is a very good item to have available. Had to Buy GT Spec LCA and toe links , i'd like to see the camber setting range available with these

console_cowboy 06-11-2013 01:17 AM
I am hoping to get -1.5 deg of camber on each of my rear wheels using that control arm. I am hoping that the toe bushings included with the kit should help. I am currently sitting at -1.8 deg on one side and -2.4 deg on the other. I'd like to get the camber down to -1.5 deg with zero toe on the rear. The bushings should help some, but if I have to get replacement toe links I will.

Thank you for the excellent information. Hopefully I will not have any issue. I also have the KCA326 adjustable upper control arm bushings, but am having trouble finding someone who can install them locally without charging an arm and a leg. I lack the tools the do the bushing press myself. I may try to get them off and take them up to a shop. I am also unsure that I will be able to get enough adjustment from the bushing kit alone for the one side.

OrbitalEllipses 06-11-2013 03:24 AM
Using the SPC arm and toe bushings I ended up at -1.5 rear camber with 0 toe. Any less camber resulted in toe change. I'm only dropped 20mm so YMMV.

The Whiteline UCA camber bushings are good for +/- 0.75 camber.

In the end the LCA and toe arms (if needed) end up being cheaper if you install them yourself versus getting the arm removed, bushing pressed, and arm reinstalled.

console_cowboy 06-11-2013 09:58 AM
I am also only dropped 20mm or so with the RCE yellow springs. I am shooting for -1.5 in the rear, so that should be perfect. Hopefully I will have the same luck and be able to get that into spec.

If I require any more in the future, I could possibly remove the upper arms and have the bushings pressed in. The cost for that should be much less.

Also, which style control arms did you use? I used these: http://www.spcperformance.com/index....tion&pid=67660

I believe there is another style of arms as well, although the older style does not look as nice.

OrbitalEllipses 06-11-2013 11:13 AM
I have the other style.

SuiSid3l 06-11-2013 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 991921)
Yeah...$800 for arms that you can't adjust on the car? I appreciate the hard work and design, but no thanks.
I'm with you on this, 800 bones just seems steep to me. I know its your best method of adjusting rear camber and I'm for spending money on my car but...

nab335 06-11-2013 03:37 PM
I hit up racerx a few days back and they said the upper control arms give a range of a total of 8 degrees of camber. 4 degrees negative or 4 degrees positive.

Jeff@Racer X Fab 06-11-2013 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuiSid3l (Post 995737)
I'm with you on this, 800 bones just seems steep to me. I know its your best method of adjusting rear camber and I'm for spending money on my car but...

We have had a lot of interest in the upper control arms but most are stating the same issue. Too expensive.

I'm curious what would be considered a reasonable price?

wparsons 06-11-2013 05:13 PM
I would bet if they were the same price as LCA's they would sell more, but I'm only basing it on personal opinion.

Jeff@Racer X Fab 06-11-2013 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons (Post 995987)
I would bet if they were the same price as LCA's they would sell more, but I'm only basing it on personal opinion.
I completely agree, however the complexity to build the upper control arm is greater. Complexity drives up labor and in turn drives up the price.

For example I have seen the front lower control arm sell between $649 and $995 but I have not seen many say that part is overpriced. From our experience the upper control arm is more difficult to build than the lower front. I'm curious why the front lower does not seem overpriced??

SuiSid3l 06-11-2013 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1715 (Post 995885)
We have had a lot of interest in the upper control arms but most are stating the same issue. Too expensive.

I'm curious what would be considered a reasonable price?
I dont want you to take that post the wrong way. I inquired about them from you b/c I'm very interested in them. They look amazing and I love that you make them in poly and spherical.

I'd have to say in line or slightly more than quality lca's would be a definite buy from me.

Just for reference I havent spent 500 on rear LCA's specifically b/c I feel they are overpriced for what they are, no when I can essentially tune out most of the negative camber I dont want from 125 dollar bushings...

IMOA 06-11-2013 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1715 (Post 996067)
I completely agree, however the complexity to build the upper control arm is greater. Complexity drives up labor and in turn drives up the price.

For example I have seen the front lower control arm sell between $649 and $995 but I have not seen many say that part is overpriced. From our experience the upper control arm is more difficult to build than the lower front. I'm curious why the front lower does not seem overpriced??
My take would be that $800 is very hard to justify for an arm which cannot be adjusted on the car. If it was on-car adjustable the price would be at the higher end but acceptable. If they provided a way that an adjustment could be repeated consistently (eg add 1 degree of camber for track day, remove for street) then they would be very well priced.

Imo in this price-range you're beyond the 'look at me I've got shiny colourful suspension arms' crowd and dealing with people who are focussed on function, in particular function for the track. So that leaves you with the competition being the offset bushes which provide on-car adjustability for $150-$200 which makes it's tough to justify the price.

Jeff@Racer X Fab 06-12-2013 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOA (Post 996668)
My take would be that $800 is very hard to justify for an arm which cannot be adjusted on the car. If it was on-car adjustable the price would be at the higher end but acceptable. If they provided a way that an adjustment could be repeated consistently (eg add 1 degree of camber for track day, remove for street) then they would be very well priced.

Imo in this price-range you're beyond the 'look at me I've got shiny colourful suspension arms' crowd and dealing with people who are focussed on function, in particular function for the track. So that leaves you with the competition being the offset bushes which provide on-car adjustability for $150-$200 which makes it's tough to justify the price.
While the cost does seem high, it does provide the adjustment needed at the correct location at half of the weight of the OEM arm. Instead of purchasing lower control arms, trailing arms, and toe links to provide camber and correct alignment. If purchasing all 3 of the lower components the price could go well over $800.00.

We do have upper control arms in prototype that are adjustable on the vehicle. The arms are currently on hold while we view the interest for the rest of the suspension products.

grodenglaive 06-12-2013 07:20 AM
They look well built. Considering it's the only upper control arm available so far, the price isn't unreasonable. People will either buy them, or not.
Because of the ease of installation and adjustment, I'll probably go with the lowers though.

wparsons 06-12-2013 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grodenglaive (Post 997134)
They look well built. Considering it's the only upper control arm available so far, the price isn't unreasonable. People will either buy them, or not.
Because of the ease of installation and adjustment, I'll probably go with the lowers though.
IMO, the uppers are easier to adjust even if you have to pull it out of the rear knuckle to adjust it. You're only dealing with a single adjustment instead of three moving parts to get the alignment right. With the LCA's you need to watch all three links (LCA, toe and trailing links) to not affect more than you're intending to.

The price is more than I can justify right now, but that doesn't meant it isn't a fair price. I don't think most people look at the consequences of just adjusting the LCA without the toe and trailing links when they purchase them.

SLICVIC 06-12-2013 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grodenglaive (Post 997134)
They look well built. Considering it's the only upper control arm available so far, the price isn't unreasonable. .
this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons (Post 997585)
IMO, the uppers are easier to adjust even if you have to pull it out of the rear knuckle to adjust it. You're only dealing with a single adjustment instead of three moving parts to get the alignment right. With the LCA's you need to watch all three links (LCA, toe and trailing links) to not affect more than you're intending to.

The price is more than I can justify right now, but that doesn't meant it isn't a fair price. I don't think most people look at the consequences of just adjusting the LCA without the toe and trailing links when they purchase them.
this.


eyeballing my LCA and toelinks was extremely difficult. in the end had an alignment shop do it. I read up somewhere about a company attempting to produce these and the result was too difficult to mass produce and sell at an attractive price. Seeing these 800 does not surprise me. As far as fitment goes, sometimes negative camber isnt "Good" camber. For example, the front LCAs being on a Mcpherson setup, Dialing in more negative camber will give you LESS clearance . (same effect on the GD Subarus with Mcpherson all around) On our rears, the LCAs do help for fitment clearance, but the uppers will give you alot more room between tire and fender. LCAs will kick out the bottom of the knuckle/wheel while upper arms will pull in the top of the knuckle/wheel.

@racerx1715 Just curious, lets say on stock LCA , trailing, toe links, Whats the maximum negative camber possible with your upper control arms?

SuiSid3l 06-12-2013 07:27 PM
The funny thing is I saw the price tag and immediately said no thanks, now I'm probably gonna read this entire thread and get talked into buying them...

Jeff@Racer X Fab 06-13-2013 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLICVIC (Post 997746)
this.




this.


eyeballing my LCA and toelinks was extremely difficult. in the end had an alignment shop do it. I read up somewhere about a company attempting to produce these and the result was too difficult to mass produce and sell at an attractive price. Seeing these 800 does not surprise me. As far as fitment goes, sometimes negative camber isnt "Good" camber. For example, the front LCAs being on a Mcpherson setup, Dialing in more negative camber will give you LESS clearance . (same effect on the GD Subarus with Mcpherson all around) On our rears, the LCAs do help for fitment clearance, but the uppers will give you alot more room between tire and fender. LCAs will kick out the bottom of the knuckle/wheel while upper arms will pull in the top of the knuckle/wheel.

@racerx1715 Just curious, lets say on stock LCA , trailing, toe links, Whats the maximum negative camber possible with your upper control arms?
4 Degrees of camber adjustment in either direction.

SLICVIC 06-13-2013 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1715 (Post 999387)
4 Degrees of camber adjustment in either direction.
Amazing. Thanks.:respekt::bow:

JordanWho 06-14-2013 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLICVIC (Post 997746)
this.

eyeballing my LCA and toelinks was extremely difficult. in the end had an alignment shop do it. I read up somewhere about a company attempting to produce these and the result was too difficult to mass produce and sell at an attractive price. Seeing these 800 does not surprise me. As far as fitment goes, sometimes negative camber isnt "Good" camber. For example, the front LCAs being on a Mcpherson setup, Dialing in more negative camber will give you LESS clearance . (same effect on the GD Subarus with Mcpherson all around) On our rears, the LCAs do help for fitment clearance, but the uppers will give you alot more room between tire and fender. LCAs will kick out the bottom of the knuckle/wheel while upper arms will pull in the top of the knuckle/wheel.

Just curious, lets say on stock LCA , trailing, toe links, Whats the maximum negative camber possible with your upper control arms?

Appreciate this info a lot.

I originally had upper camber bushings, LCA's and toe arms on order but after reading this I think I will try and cancel that order and just go with the upper arms for now.

All I want to do is tuck my rear wheels because my offset is pretty aggressive and 4 degrees should do it. If not I'll
revisit the LCA option again.

SLICVIC 06-14-2013 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanWho (Post 1001644)
Appreciate this info a lot.

I originally had upper camber bushings, LCA's and toe arms on order but after reading this I think I will try and cancel that order and just go with the upper arms for now.

All I want to do is tuck my rear wheels because my offset is pretty aggressive and 4 degrees should do it. If not I'll
revisit the LCA option again.
What kind of offsets? i can see upper control arms becoming more popular than LCA+ etc. Might have to start saving up for these

JordanWho 06-14-2013 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLICVIC (Post 1002702)
What kind of offsets? i can see upper control arms becoming more popular than LCA+ etc. Might have to start saving up for these
Front - 18 x 8.5 +13
Rear - 18 x 9.5 +18

Will take before and after pics during install.

Cmarsh 06-17-2013 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 991921)
Yeah...$800 for arms that you can't adjust on the car? I appreciate the hard work and design, but no thanks.
You are willing to pay more for a weaker part? I like this design, and tend to shy away from parts that have an adjuster built in..just from a strength point of view. Besides...90% of the people with these cars have no buisness making on car camber adjustments..nor the correct tools to measure camber when not on an alignment machine.

Chris

SLICVIC 06-17-2013 10:39 PM
very true^

IMOA 06-17-2013 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmarsh (Post 1007008)
You are willing to pay more for a weaker part? I like this design, and tend to shy away from parts that have an adjuster built in..just from a strength point of view. Besides...90% of the people with these cars have no buisness making on car camber adjustments..nor the correct tools to measure camber when not on an alignment machine.

Chris
I'm happy enough to pay extra for a weaker part as long as it's strong enough to be fit for purpose. And just because a part is on car adjustable doesn't mean it's being adjusted while not on an alignment machine, it just makes it easier, faster and cheaper to do so.


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