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-   -   Shifting problems? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35390)

official_george 05-02-2013 04:39 PM
Shifting problems?
 
I have a manual FR-S, with these issues:

1. Shifting into first gear (from neutral at 0mph or from higher gears at less than 10mph) produces a *thud* sound and very slightly jerks the car a little. I supposed this is the clutch connecting the engine to the wheels, but is it really that noticeable? This happens 50% of the time, and usually when the RPM is decreasing.

2. Shifting from 1st to 2nd gear produces a metallic clunk (not grind). It doesn't sound that bad, more like when cocking a gun, you can hear the gears "meshing" together. Is this normal? Only on 1st to 2nd gear.

3. Are the shift points that low or am I just not getting it? Whenever speeding up (to merge into a freeway from a stop), when I'm upshifting, I get a thud and a jerk. I usually upshifts at 2.5-3K RPM or every 15mph. I let go of the clutch pedal quickly because I don't want to burn out the clutch early. Is this wrong? Should I be letting the clutch go slowly?

tom@kartboy 05-02-2013 04:46 PM
How many miles on the car? If its still pretty new, it will be a little clunky till things wear in.

CamryDS 05-02-2013 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by official_george (Post 906857)
I have a manual FR-S, with these issues:

1. Shifting into first gear (from neutral at 0mph or from higher gears at less than 10mph) produces a *thud* sound and very slightly jerks the car a little. I supposed this is the clutch connecting the engine to the wheels, but is it really that noticeable? This happens 50% of the time, and usually when the RPM is decreasing.

2. Shifting from 1st to 2nd gear produces a metallic clunk (not grind). It doesn't sound that bad, more like when cocking a gun, you can hear the gears "meshing" together. Is this normal? Only on 1st to 2nd gear.

3. Are the shift points that low or am I just not getting it? Whenever speeding up (to merge into a freeway from a stop), when I'm upshifting, I get a thud and a jerk. I usually upshifts at 2.5-3K RPM or every 15mph. I let go of the clutch pedal quickly because I don't want to burn out the clutch early. Is this wrong? Should I be letting the clutch go slowly?

3 points in the clutch
A - << clutch depressed
|
|
|
B - << biting point
|
|
|
C - << Fully engaged clutch


You can let go of the clutch however fast you want from point A to point B -- but you gotta hold your foot on point B until your tach/revs match to a point where it's smooth -- then slowly disengage to C

You slowly move from A to C and you'll get a hesitation all the time, no matter how slow -- sometimes you may get lucky, but doing it this way is wrong and you'll screw up the clutch.

Hope that explains things =) -- Oh your throw-out-bearing will always be under wear when you depress the clutch, so you gotta keep that in mind.

Clunk will be there for a while, as long as you're not grinding -- no problems. When in doubt, let go of the clutch and then depress the clutch all the way down and try again to engage the gear.

strat61caster 05-02-2013 04:52 PM
All relatively normal, see if you can meetup with another owner and listen to his/her car, or maybe go to the dealer and speak with them.

You can let the clutch out slower to help smooth out the ride, yes it may increase wear but that is it's job, to wear and smooth the transmission of power to the wheels. It's replaceable and this car is so simple that it shouldn't be a big deal.

OrbitalEllipses 05-02-2013 05:04 PM
Clunky clutch and 2nd gear shift have been there since day 1 for me.

Scheduled a service visit when shift quality started to degrade in other gears, dealer said I was fine. If it blows up I have a warranty and will piss and moan until I get a new clutch.

King Tut 05-02-2013 05:24 PM
Sounds like this is your first manual and these issues sound normal to me. Nothing to worry about.

Freetime 05-02-2013 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by official_george (Post 906857)
I have a manual FR-S, with these issues:

1. Shifting into first gear (from neutral at 0mph or from higher gears at less than 10mph) produces a *thud* sound and very slightly jerks the car a little. I supposed this is the clutch connecting the engine to the wheels, but is it really that noticeable? This happens 50% of the time, and usually when the RPM is decreasing.

2. Shifting from 1st to 2nd gear produces a metallic clunk (not grind). It doesn't sound that bad, more like when cocking a gun, you can hear the gears "meshing" together. Is this normal? Only on 1st to 2nd gear.

3. Are the shift points that low or am I just not getting it? Whenever speeding up (to merge into a freeway from a stop), when I'm upshifting, I get a thud and a jerk. I usually upshifts at 2.5-3K RPM or every 15mph. I let go of the clutch pedal quickly because I don't want to burn out the clutch early. Is this wrong? Should I be letting the clutch go slowly?
Might not be for everyone, but for me, it shifts much smoother if I shift closer to 4k. The lower the RPM when I shift, the clunkier it is.

Norkoastal 05-02-2013 06:29 PM
1. Shifting into first gear (from neutral at 0mph or from higher gears at less than 10mph) produces a *thud* sound and very slightly jerks the car a little. I supposed this is the clutch connecting the engine to the wheels, but is it really that noticeable? This happens 50% of the time, and usually when the RPM is decreasing.
-----------------------------------
Press clutch.... wait.... wait..... shift into first... This solves most of those thunk shifts into gear from a stop.. I hated it too until I used this method.
-------------------------------------

2. Shifting from 1st to 2nd gear produces a metallic clunk (not grind). It doesn't sound that bad, more like when cocking a gun, you can hear the gears "meshing" together. Is this normal? Only on 1st to 2nd gear.
---------------------------------------
Try shifting slower into 1-2 than any other gear.. The flywheel takes a while to get down to the smooth engagement point in 2nd.
---------------------------------------
3. Are the shift points that low or am I just not getting it? Whenever speeding up (to merge into a freeway from a stop), when I'm upshifting, I get a thud and a jerk. I usually upshifts at 2.5-3K RPM or every 15mph. I let go of the clutch pedal quickly because I don't want to burn out the clutch early. Is this wrong? Should I be letting the clutch go slowly?
-----------------------------------------
Shift higher in the RPM's for spirited upshifting..

zc06_kisstherain 05-02-2013 06:31 PM
sounds normal to me as well. almost all vehicles are different so take your time and learn where clutch engagment is best to smooth out

wheelhaus 05-02-2013 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norkoastal (Post 907159)
1. Shifting into first gear (from neutral at 0mph or from higher gears at less than 10mph) produces a *thud* sound and very slightly jerks the car a little. I supposed this is the clutch connecting the engine to the wheels, but is it really that noticeable? This happens 50% of the time, and usually when the RPM is decreasing.
-----------------------------------
Press clutch.... wait.... wait..... shift into first... This solves most of those thunk shifts into gear from a stop.. I hated it too until I used this method.
-------------------------------------
The clunk is entirely normal. Most cars have softer tranny mounts that mask the clunk. This clunk is caused by the synchros forcing the input shaft to a sudden stop or sudden rpm. It's more noticeable wen stopped because you're not moving. You can sometimes feel it bump the car forward a hair because the input shaft's inertia is transferred into the gears. Norkoastal's "solution" simply allows some extra time for the input shaft to slow to a stop before engaging first. The gears are always and forever locked to rotate with the rear wheels (the clutch only affects the engine side). So when you disengage the clutch and roll to a stop, the input shaft is still spinning a bit. If you engage first sooner, you feel it clunk to a sudden stop; waiting a few seconds and it slows to a stop on its own. Either way, nothing is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norkoastal (Post 907159)
2. Shifting from 1st to 2nd gear produces a metallic clunk (not grind). It doesn't sound that bad, more like when cocking a gun, you can hear the gears "meshing" together. Is this normal? Only on 1st to 2nd gear.
---------------------------------------
Try shifting slower into 1-2 than any other gear.. The flywheel takes a while to get down to the smooth engagement point in 2nd.
---------------------------------------
Selecting a gear has nothing to do with the flywheel, or engine speed once the clutch is disengaged. The synchros and the tranny oil are the only two things affecting shift quality between gears (unless something else is wrong). Slowing the shift movement into 2nd allows the synchros more time to match the internal speed of the input shaft. The slight "crunch" that is felt in 1st and 2nd is somewhat normal, you're feeling the synchros engage. 1st and 2nd use "triple cone" synchros that have more parts, and are designed to better hadle shifting at high rpm. at lower rpm, its more noticeable. The shifter in this car is a direct connection, not a vague cable actuated shifter to a transverse mounted tranny like many new owners are used to, which can mask things. Also, the tranny will shift smoother once it's up to temp, which could easily take 15-30 minutes depending on driving style and ambient temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norkoastal (Post 907159)
3. Are the shift points that low or am I just not getting it? Whenever speeding up (to merge into a freeway from a stop), when I'm upshifting, I get a thud and a jerk. I usually upshifts at 2.5-3K RPM or every 15mph. I let go of the clutch pedal quickly because I don't want to burn out the clutch early. Is this wrong? Should I be letting the clutch go slowly?
-----------------------------------------
Shift higher in the RPM's for spirited upshifting..
Agreed here, if you're getting a sudden jerk when trying to accelerate from a dead stop, don't release the clutch so suddenly, or just rev to a higher rpm and let it slip just a bit. Shifting at 3k is fine for putting through traffic, but it's far too limp if you're trying to merge onto the freeway. If you're accelerating hard through the gears, let the engine rev as high as you want and shift quickly, in this case a surge forward is normal due to engine rpm (and the flywheel inertia as Norkoastal mentioned above). It's perfectly fine to let it slip some in 1st if you're trying to get moving as quick as possible, but you don't want to be excessive to the point you can smell it. Hard launches require some clutch slip. Normal traffic requires minimal clutch slip from a stop, and none when rowing between gears.

official_george 05-03-2013 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelhaus (Post 907363)
The clunk is entirely normal. Most cars have softer tranny mounts that mask the clunk. This clunk is caused by the synchros forcing the input shaft to a sudden stop or sudden rpm. It's more noticeable wen stopped because you're not moving. You can sometimes feel it bump the car forward a hair because the input shaft's inertia is transferred into the gears. Norkoastal's "solution" simply allows some extra time for the input shaft to slow to a stop before engaging first. The gears are always and forever locked to rotate with the rear wheels (the clutch only affects the engine side). So when you disengage the clutch and roll to a stop, the input shaft is still spinning a bit. If you engage first sooner, you feel it clunk to a sudden stop; waiting a few seconds and it slows to a stop on its own. Either way, nothing is wrong.


Selecting a gear has nothing to do with the flywheel, or engine speed once the clutch is disengaged. The synchros and the tranny oil are the only two things affecting shift quality between gears (unless something else is wrong). Slowing the shift movement into 2nd allows the synchros more time to match the internal speed of the input shaft. The slight "crunch" that is felt in 1st and 2nd is somewhat normal, you're feeling the synchros engage. 1st and 2nd use "triple cone" synchros that have more parts, and are designed to better hadle shifting at high rpm. at lower rpm, its more noticeable. The shifter in this car is a direct connection, not a vague cable actuated shifter to a transverse mounted tranny like many new owners are used to, which can mask things. Also, the tranny will shift smoother once it's up to temp, which could easily take 15-30 minutes depending on driving style and ambient temps.



Agreed here, if you're getting a sudden jerk when trying to accelerate from a dead stop, don't release the clutch so suddenly, or just rev to a higher rpm and let it slip just a bit. Shifting at 3k is fine for putting through traffic, but it's far too limp if you're trying to merge onto the freeway. If you're accelerating hard through the gears, let the engine rev as high as you want and shift quickly, in this case a surge forward is normal due to engine rpm (and the flywheel inertia as Norkoastal mentioned above). It's perfectly fine to let it slip some in 1st if you're trying to get moving as quick as possible, but you don't want to be excessive to the point you can smell it. Hard launches require some clutch slip. Normal traffic requires minimal clutch slip from a stop, and none when rowing between gears.
Thanks for the reply!

What about rev-matching? Does it actually help save the clutch from wearing down?

wheelhaus 05-03-2013 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by official_george (Post 907877)
Thanks for the reply!

What about rev-matching? Does it actually help save the clutch from wearing down?
Yes. But more importantly, it prevents the car's balance from being disrupted. Daily driving isn't a big deal, but performance driving or racing use every bit of the car's capability, especially traction. If you're already loaded heavily in a corner, and then downshift mid-corner, the sudden forward weight shift and spike in resistance on the rear wheels is a recipe for a spin. This is also used as a technique called "shift lock" to initiate a drift, but it's hard on the drivetrain.

A little more info- The clutch is used to engage the engine to the transmission. The synchros are used to engage a selected gear to the drivetrain. Think of the synchros like little clutches for each gear. If you consider the fact that rev matching nearly eliminates wear on the clutch since you can match speeds before engaging it, double clutching can do the same for the synchros. DC'ing won't make any difference in the car's balance, but it's fun, and nice to know if you ever drive a car with a dog box tranny or a munched synchro.

Gords_zenith 05-03-2013 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by official_george (Post 907877)
Thanks for the reply!

What about rev-matching? Does it actually help save the clutch from wearing down?
I wouldnt worry about that yet young grass hopper. Wait till you master the basics first to shift as smooth as an auto. For downshifting without blipping just release the clutch slowly to allow engine revs to match, and dont grab a gear too low, slow down till revs are about 2000 than downshift. as you get more comfortable and smoother, you can do that higher in the revs. Than after some quality time just learnng to be smooth, than progress to blipping the throttle to downshift, once this is mastered , move on to heel and toe rev matching. My two cents. Hope this helps.

It's not the clutch your worried about, it's the sudden jump in engine revs when releasing the clutch too fast downshifting with the revs high, or accidentally grabbing the wrong gear. Rev matching also allows the tires to maintain a better grip as the transition from cruising/accelerating to deceleration is smoother.

OrbitalEllipses 05-03-2013 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gords_zenith (Post 907944)
or accidentally grabbing the wrong gear
:slap: Don't do this. Downshifting into too low a gear can pop the engine. Mechanical over-rev.

Norkoastal 05-03-2013 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelhaus (Post 907363)
The clunk is entirely normal. Most cars have softer tranny mounts that mask the clunk. This clunk is caused by the synchros forcing the input shaft to a sudden stop or sudden rpm. It's more noticeable wen stopped because you're not moving. You can sometimes feel it bump the car forward a hair because the input shaft's inertia is transferred into the gears. Norkoastal's "solution" simply allows some extra time for the input shaft to slow to a stop before engaging first. The gears are always and forever locked to rotate with the rear wheels (the clutch only affects the engine side). So when you disengage the clutch and roll to a stop, the input shaft is still spinning a bit. If you engage first sooner, you feel it clunk to a sudden stop; waiting a few seconds and it slows to a stop on its own. Either way, nothing is wrong.

[norkoastal] While I agree with your comments, I find them not accurate in scenarios where people are stuck at lights for 30 seconds to a minute.. Nothing is spinning in the drivetrain at those times.. I've been at a light for a minute and get the clunk.. Pressing the clutch for 4-5 seconds (basically timing the light) will usually keep you clunk/jerk free and offer a smooth glide into 1st gear from a stop..

-------------------------------------------
Selecting a gear has nothing to do with the flywheel, or engine speed once the clutch is disengaged. The synchros and the tranny oil are the only two things affecting shift quality between gears (unless something else is wrong). Slowing the shift movement into 2nd allows the synchros more time to match the internal speed of the input shaft. The slight "crunch" that is felt in 1st and 2nd is somewhat normal, you're feeling the synchros engage. 1st and 2nd use "triple cone" synchros that have more parts, and are designed to better hadle shifting at high rpm. at lower rpm, its more noticeable. The shifter in this car is a direct connection, not a vague cable actuated shifter to a transverse mounted tranny like many new owners are used to, which can mask things. Also, the tranny will shift smoother once it's up to temp, which could easily take 15-30 minutes depending on driving style and ambient temps.

[norkoastal] good comments.. My advice is to slow down the 1-2 shift waiting for the flyywheel to catch up, then slowly notch the gear into 2.. Using this process has given me the most consistent and notchy/jerk free experience. Shifting too fast introduces "Bite" and syncho catching.
----------------------------------------
Agreed here, if you're getting a sudden jerk when trying to accelerate from a dead stop, don't release the clutch so suddenly, or just rev to a higher rpm and let it slip just a bit. Shifting at 3k is fine for putting through traffic, but it's far too limp if you're trying to merge onto the freeway. If you're accelerating hard through the gears, let the engine rev as high as you want and shift quickly, in this case a surge forward is normal due to engine rpm (and the flywheel inertia as Norkoastal mentioned above). It's perfectly fine to let it slip some in 1st if you're trying to get moving as quick as possible, but you don't want to be excessive to the point you can smell it. Hard launches require some clutch slip. Normal traffic requires minimal clutch slip from a stop, and none when rowing between gears.

Great info Haus!!

wheelhaus 05-03-2013 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by norkoastal
While I agree with your comments, I find them not accurate in scenarios where people are stuck at lights for 30 seconds to a minute.. Nothing is spinning in the drivetrain at those times.. I've been at a light for a minute and get the clunk.. Pressing the clutch for 4-5 seconds (basically timing the light) will usually keep you clunk/jerk free and offer a smooth glide into 1st gear from a stop..
You're experiencing exactly what I described.
I suspect you do the same thing I do when stopped at a light, which is to shift to neutral and release the clutch.

So, the gears are not moving, but the input shaft is spinning inside them because the clutch is engaged. When you disengage the clutch and select 1st, the synchro quickly matches the speed difference and causes the input shaft to stop, which causes the clunk. It doesn't matter how long you're stopped, if the clutch is engaged, then the input shaft is turning.

If you go back to neutral and release the clutch, the input shaft is again tied to the engine so it spins at engine rpm again. You should be able to repeat this and get the clunk every time without ever moving forward.

forzajuve 05-03-2013 08:01 PM
You are never supposed to shift into 1st gear unless you are going MAYBE 5mph or lower. The only time you should shift into first is when you are at a complete stop and need to move forward.

Gords_zenith 05-07-2013 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by forzajuve (Post 909852)
You are never supposed to shift into 1st gear unless you are going MAYBE 5mph or lower. The only time you should shift into first is when you are at a complete stop and need to move forward.
That was true only to old cars that didn't have 1st gear syncros.

I skip shift but row the gears normally but don't let the clutch out between each one, and then engage the gear I wanted.

Chinadian 05-08-2013 10:08 AM
For those who have shifting issues i would recommend the clutch adjustment mod and see if it improves. I had lots of shifting issues of non-smoothness and gassing too early but after I did the clutch adjustment my shifting has been alot more smooth.

racer_tom 05-10-2013 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinadian (Post 919018)
For those who have shifting issues i would recommend the clutch adjustment mod and see if it improves. I had lots of shifting issues of non-smoothness and gassing too early but after I did the clutch adjustment my shifting has been alot more smooth.
What clutch adjustment are you referring to? Can you please point to how this is accomplished or what is done? I'm very interested in trying this.

Just found this thread :: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...tch+adjustment
Were you referring to this engagement point adjustment>

Chinadian 05-11-2013 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_tom (Post 925692)
What clutch adjustment are you referring to? Can you please point to how this is accomplished or what is done? I'm very interested in trying this.

Just found this thread :: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...tch+adjustment
Were you referring to this engagement point adjustment>

Yes

Skurj 05-11-2013 10:59 AM
Sounds exactly like my car... they say its the norm!

eSOLOR 08-31-2013 02:31 PM
So my BRZ is my first manual car too. I had driven manual before I got it but I'm no way perfect at it. When I put the car into first and second gear, it sometimes makes a "crunch" sound. I feel like I'm shifting wrong and grinding on something. Are you guys saying that's normal for this car? :bonk:

448hpsti 08-31-2013 02:32 PM
Did u adjust your clutch at all?

eSOLOR 08-31-2013 02:47 PM
No I did not but that's something I plan on doing in the future since I feel the grabbing point is a bit too high. Does that affect it?


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