Early locking transmission vs. Automated manual.
 

Can anyone provide insight into the tactile differences between an early locking torque converter and an automated manual. Is the Toyobaru auto going to essentially be a auto-manual with a single clutch?

When the TC locks up, the engine and transmission is directly, mechanically connected. so it should feel like an auto-manual, but obviously they both work in different ways.

Both automatics use a clutch, the only difference is one uses 2 clutches and one uses a clutch with a torque converter. Once the torque converter is locked, it's basically a manual transmission.

technically incorrect.

Auto-manuals use the conventional manual transmission gearset with an electro-hydraulically controlled clutch. dual clutches obviously use 2 gearsets and 2 clutches.

torque converter automatics use a torque converter, lock up clutch, and planetary gearsets. each planetary gearset has its own clutches/brakes to make up the different ratios

the in between transmission is AMG's MCT which uses planetary gearsets but replaces the TC and lockup clutch with a wet multiplate clutch

I don't care too much how they work but I appreciate your knowledge. My main question is how long will the clutch remain locked (within each gears range, I know it must unlock to change gears). Is it locked during cruising and hard acceleration or will it de-couple as soon as you accelerate hard.

What manufacturers are shifting towards is a lockup clutch that is more or less always engaged past 1st gear. See Mazda Skyactiv transmission, or Lexus ISF.

This is correct.

So if you throw both the FRS auto and manual on a dyno the RWHP numbers will be pretty the same?

Who cares? This car isn't about dyno numbers...


:D


But to answer your question, yes, pretty much.

So what is the advantage of a manual over the locking auto? Stronger left foot?

More fun. that's just about it.

and notice i said more fun. plenty of people can enjoy themselves in a well sorted AT. i'll never say an AT is more fun than a MT, but a good AT is fun enough, and that's good enough for me.

A transmission with a torque converter is going to feel a little bit different coming off a traffic light compared to a single or dual clutch automated manual.

But when it matters - when you're actually moving - it should feel very similar, as long as the TC locks up after first (as I would guess this gearbox does).

for the better I think? I heard that automatic using clutches only aren't very smooth from stop.

Most of those automated manual transmission attempt to emulate a torque converter equipped transmission in the way it feels coming off a stoplight. I think subjectively speaking a lot of people prefer the takeoff of a "regular" auto. Ford's dual clutch transmission they have recently introduced has been criticized for not being enough like a slushbox. Now I'm talking about opinions from the majority of the automotive press and "regular" car buyers.

The Veloster and Fiesta are actually quite when taking off from a dig.

:party0030::party0030::w00t::happyanim::happy0180: :burnrubber::thumbsup:


I love this!!!

I rather not give up what little torque this car has to parasitic loss. ;)

^ Parasitic Loss of which there would be almost no discernable difference between a Manual and an Auto with a locked Torque Convertor ;)

So is it safe to say that the AT should perform very similarly to the MT from gears 2 thru 6? I understand the gearing is slightly different between the AT and MT too, but if we were to assume the two had the exact same gearing, and you were both in 2nd going the same speed (say 15 mph), should the two cars both get to 100 mph at virtually the same time, assuming same redline shift-points, and assuming the MT driver is 40 lbs heavier than the AT driver to make up the difference in weight between the two cards. (?)

The one with 2 clutches is a Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT)

The DCT is found in the VW GTI (DSG), Mitsubishi EVO X and Ralliart, Porsche, etc.

Assumming that the gearing is identical and the weight is equivalent, then for the most part yes. The performance would be the same as the torque converter locks up to provide a direct coupling (mechanical) as opposed to a fluid coupling.

Auto Dynos lower power than the MT because of parasatic losses.

I thought someone dynoed the 86 and found that the performance was pretty much the same?

Or I am hallucinating. Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

There are several Dynos posted in this forum from AT members showing less power on stock cars when compared to stock MT cars. Heck, the ECUTek tunes gain less HO and less TQ on Auto's than on MT.

Hm... I wonder what car forum I was on yesterday after work. May have been something with a DCT... oh well.

Here is one example.

It's not a huge difference, but it is noticeable in the top end.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...25&postcount=1

The automatic will still have lower numbers because the auto transmission still
uses a hydraulic pump to operate, and it will cost some HP to drive, even with the converter locked up.

Wouldn't one rather have the converter unlocked for acceleration? This allows torque multiplication. Locking it gives a more direct feel but less torque. Unlocked also adds heat.

Came here to say this.