Alignment needed after front camber bolt install?
 

I'm considering purchasing the SPC 16mm camber bolts. Is an alignment required after the install? Do toe and caster change? I'm currently running on OEM tires and would prefer to do the alignment after I get some sticky rubber mounted.

camber bolts:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Specialty-Products-Company-81280-Adjuster/dp/B000CB3QUI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356902043&sr=8-1&keywords=16mm+camber+bolt"]Specialty Products Company 81280 EZ Cam XR 16mm Adjuster Bolt - Pair : Amazon.com : Automotive[/ame]

Caster wont be effected. Toe and camber will be, so yes, an alignment will be required.

if i get an alignment with the oem tires, will i have to get another alignment after i get new tires mounted? the tires will be the same as the OEM size and mounted on the same rims.

I'm really not sure if you're trolling or serious.

No you wont need an alignment after mounting new tires, but if you've driven enough to wear out the OEM tires it may be worth it to get an alignment incase any large potholes or even just normal wear and tear caused things to drift.

i just wasn't sure because even though the new tires will be the same size (215/45/17), they're not necessarily identical in tread width compared to the oem tires.

It wouldn't mater if they were a different size. The tire size wont effect the alignment.

The toe change when you add the camber bolts will be pretty negligible. I added nearly 2.5 degrees of negative camber via bolts and still had a reasonable alignment (about 1/8" toe in). I want zero toe to a little bit out, so I did adjust it, but for around town? Nah, no real need.

I'm using the factory alignment bolts up top and some 14mm SPC bolts in the bottom holes.

according to whiteline, the official camber bolt for this car is supposed to be 16mm mounted in the top slot of the strut. the camber bolt might be carrying too much load by having it mounted at the bottom.

Then use the 16mm up top. Don't worry about me, I'll be fine.

You still won't need an alignment.

This.

Also are you doing any lowering?

Our suggestion would be to get an alignment after doing the camber bolts because you will be changing the camber and having someone check it out to make sure it's correct is a good idea.

-Mike Paisan

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no plans to lower it at this point. i'll get an alignment once i get the front camber bolts installed.

getting additional camber in the rear will be tricky though. maybe lowering the car to get additional rear camber might not be a bad idea.

Also changing the tires does not change the alignment.

-Mike Paisan

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Yes you will, you still need to set the camber to ensure it's even and where you want it.

No, you will set it to the maximum you can get on each side. Yall are making this a lot harder than you have to. Assuming the car hasn't been crashed already, it will be pretty square, so doing the same thing on each side will give results that are adequate.

If it makes you feel better, pay $80 for an alignment, maybe more if you actually want a custom alignment. I'll laugh when they use those camber bolts to give exactly 0 degrees on each side, rather than the most you can get.

If the car had double a-arms up front, with 4 adjusters per side, I'd be all about going to a shop for an alignment. There are too many variables to do it easily at home, but on these cars, there isn't enough to adjust to make that worth while.

The point of camber bolts is to add camber. Yes, you want an alignment.

You do NOT need an alignment if you are simply replacing 2 of the bolts with the camber bolts.

There are 2 shock bolts per side, and the camber bolts only replace 1 per side, so if you leave one untouched on each side, the alignment doesn't change.

Anything you do by eye is not going to yield a good result. I'm sorry but this is just an ignorant way to go about things. Yes you can eyeball it as a temporary setup but long-term you want a real alignment anytime you touch the camber bolts.

Ugh. The ignorance that abounds on these forums amazes me sometimes.

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/14...8/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg
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"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

It does not matter if you change 1 bolt per side. You will STILL need to get a proper alignment.

You are 100% wrong.

I'm not saying it will be out of spec.

I think we need more information before this thread gets out of hand.
@ayau what are you trying to get out of this setup? Track, street or stance?

Once that's answered a better answer can be given.

mild track/autox. i just want to give the front a little more camber to avoid prematurely wearing out the tires and also adding extra grip when cornering.

in the future, i may go with some coilovers and the camber bolts will help dial in the exact camber settings.

Ok, so as stated it shouldn't be out of spec with just the 2 upper bolts being replaced.

When do you think you will get the suspension? If its sooner rather than later wait until then to dial it in.

If its going to be over a year than just get the alignment done now for piece of mind. Hell if the shop is a quality shop they will let you know if you need it done prior to touching anything on the car as they will do a baseline.

i still need some sticky tires as i'm currently running on oem tires with aftermarket rims. the coilovers will largely depend on what's available. there aren't a lot of options right now, and everything seems overpriced. i suppose that's the cost of being an early adopter.

The alignment isn't related to your tires or rims, so you can go ahead and get that alignment. Once camber bolts are remove/reinstalled or installed for the first time you absolutely will need to get an alignment. Unless you are planning to upgrade your suspension within a month or 2 then get the alignment done to prevent premature wear and unsafe handling.

Will you be installing the bolts yourself or having a shop do it?

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/14...8/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg
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i will be having the shop install it. i figured it's not that much extra work to slot a bolt through.

Koni inserts and springs will probably work better for you. If you call TurnInConcepts they might even cut your stock damper bodies and insert the Konis for you, for a fee.

Is your upgrade path:

Bolts-Tires-Suspension?

Either way I would get an alignment once you change the tires, as the stock will be way more forgiving than the stickier ones as far as wear is concerned.

yup. that path looks about right.

the reason why i chose to mount the oem tires on the aftermarket (ce28n) rims is because the oem tires are good to learn on for a novice driver such as myself. i just happened to run into a good deal on the rims.

Nice I was going to ask what wheels you had.

What tires are you planning on getting?

thanks. i'm looking at koni dampers right now and seeing what spring i could possibly pair them with.

RCE Yellows will go nicely. Golden combo in the Impreza world.

most likely 215/45/17 direzza star specs II mounted on 17x7.5 +50 ce28n.

i looked at the rs3 but everyone says that they're not great in the wet. hopefully the direzza II will be just as good as the direzza I in terms of wet performance. i should have plenty of tire tread left on the OEM tires before the direzzas are out.

are the koni yellows better able to take on the stiffer spring rates compared to the OEM dampers? i know that RECE has stated many times that the OEM dampers are over-damped from the factory and are able to take on stiffer rates.

The RCE and stock combo should last a while. The Koni's would probably be needed sooner for a more agressive drop.

Konis will serve for these and the ones you get after. I'm staying on stock dampers for the time being, since they are pretty good (miles better than Impreza). A mild drop and good handling without the hassle of building and adjusting a new damper is what I'm after. Get camber plates if you're that worried about camber/caster. Should out perform any <$2K coil over setup unless you're looking for height and damper (compression/rebound) adjustability.

Springs $300. Rear LCA $300-600. Camber plates $300. FWIW inquire about RCE making "Black" springs; those are their stiffer line that would be better matched to an aftermarket damper.

The Konis will be great for what you want to do. The RCEs will likely work well with your stock dampers as their drop is not dramatic at all. Anything beyond that though you will want the Konis. The nice thing about the Konis is that they carry a lifetime warranty and are adjustable so that you can fine tune it (and adjust them to be even, as most shocks/struts these days are not matched up in a set).

We will be offering Konis for sale pre-inserted into housings for folks who don't want to hack up their stock ones. Just waiting on KYB pricing for the housings and for Koni to actually start shipping their inserts for the BRZ/FRS then we'll start offering this to our customers.

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/14...8/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg
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Eh, whatever you say. I've done alignment bolts multiple times on my BRZ, and I do check the alignment using alignment tools. I have toe plates and a camber gauge. It's easy to check, and in every case when I check, I think to myself, "Wow, this car doesn't change much when you adjust the camber."

I'm well aware of the fact adding negative camber causes a little bit of toe in. When I did the Subaru alignment bolts I still had toe OUT. When I added a second set of camber bolts I checked the toe again, and it had gone to about 1/8" in. I've got about -2.3 degrees of camber via bolts, it's a budget I'm willing to make. I want a little toe out up front, so yes I did adjust it after the 2nd set of bolts, but I didn't have to adjust it. 1/8" in is just fine.

In my "ignorance" I just maxed out the negative camber on both sides, and shocker, they are close enough to being the same I didn't need to change the camber side to side. For autocross, -2.3 isn't as much as I'd like, so I go for the most I can.

Scott

The point is you did actually check it on YOUR CAR it worked, great. However, not every car (even within the same make/model/year) will be the same as yours. The problem is that you have a sample size of a single car. Not a sample size of several 1000 cars over a decade.

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/14...8/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg
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"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

Let me answer definitively. You WILL NEED an alignment and this is based on facts.

Here is the alignment sheet from removing OEM Crash bolts and installing the SPCs.

You can see by some miracle the camber was both at 0.
However installing the new bolts greatly effected toe. Namely on the right side.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1356480988

LOL. Not a particularly relevant result. You put the bolts in and didn't set the camber, and got about "0" degrees per side, thus you remained at stock settings. Alignment guy then dialed in some neg. camber. Probably max per side (as I advised long ago in this thread). When he did it, your wonky toe actually got better (toed in a bit) because that's what happens when we add neg. camber via bolts.

Then, he tweaked it a bit (maybe) with the tie rods. We'll never know. All we know is that your initial toe was wrong.


What you really proved is that factory alignments often suck, and we might all be better served getting a fresh baseline alignment right off the showroom floor.



However, for fun, lets look at the numbers and do the math... or not, I suck at trig, so use the chart below. 24.5" is close enough to our tire diameter (24.6).

Your "before" measurement was -0.12* (L) and -0.23* (R). That translates to about -0.05" (L) and -0.1"(R) toe, or 0.15" (5/32 inch) total toe OUT. Just over an eighth of an inch. That is on the higher end of sporting. Your final numbers in inches equate to 0.08" total toe out (just shy of 3/32 inch). So you got things tweaked by 1/16". That is almost nothing. Put the car on the alignment rack a second time and the toe can change that much.

Summary:
You went from a little bit of toe out to a little less toe out. But the experiment isn't relevant.

http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/a...estoInches.jpg