**IMPORTANT** Sand in the engine block
 

So.. Apparently when they were casting the block there was sand still in the engine when they put it together for production. My car has been in the shop for the past 2 weeks and they couldnt figure out what was wrong with it till today. Needless to say Scion is trippin out and my car might spark a recall. The problem occurred around 7k mi and the idle dropped to around 400-500 rpms and pretty much lost all compression in the right side of the motor. The engine would shutter like it wanted to stall and because i had installed an aftermarket intake Scion wanted to blame the problem on that. So.. If any of you guys are having this same problem i suggest you make the engine stock as possible before bringing it into the dealership. im in jacksonville, nc right now and there are currently 3 people having the same problem as me. Be on the lookout if you are noticing anything like this.

How do you know there is sand in the engine?

Sucks to hear man but, thanks for the heads up. Hopefully this wont occur.

Because my car has been at the dealership for 2 weeks and once they finally got into the cylinder they found sand in there. did my post not make sense lol?

so they actually had to tear it down i assume, whats the remedy a new engine or cleaning it??

Just wanting to know what the evidence is.

This is hard to believe. NOT SAYING it isn't true. But it isn't like they cast the blocks and immediately assemble the engine. It gets cleaned, painted, etc. etc... This is weird. Bad luck I guess.

Could this be related to the idle dip and the CEL problems we've been all having???

-> http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15577

so far im the first one to have this issue and scion is sending out a rep to look at it tomorrow. but yeah they tore it down and im hoping ill get a new engine. the mechanics at the dealership are telling me thats most likely what will happen. just hoping for the best. but im deploying to afghan in less than a month and im not sure how long its going to be in the shop for. i wanted to be able to drive it home and store it for the deployment but thats not happening now. so scion is going to have it shipped back to az for me once the issue is resolved. they even paid for my plane ticket home so i could see my family for xmas and new years.

First and foremost: Thank you for your service.

Secondly: It seems like you are being well taken care of by Scion. Please keep us updated on what happens.

I looked it up I guess sand left over from the casting is kinda common to cause problems but normally only a very small amount and it is normally found in the bottom of the oil pan after is works it's way thew the motor. Just from other stuff I saw online they have the same problems with idle dip or loss of power.

Yeah definitely, but it took A LOT of arguing and string pulling to get to where im at right now with scion customer support.. Their supervisor Danny Castro is the one who made all this happen. The other desk jockeys that i had to deal with just gave me the run around and pissed me off.

Painted block? Lol I don't think so man.

So the sand coming from the casting..is it something the mechanics said or the scion engineer/mechanics? It's a pretty bold statement to say it's a production issue from the dealership mechanics...

I think since there are issues with this engine it is best to keep it stock for now. But sand? Man....

Sounds like typical Scion (lack of) customer service to me.

yes sand, my car is top priority there right now due to this issue.

7k miles with sand in the engine....hm

Sand in the engine is tough to imagine. Especially if the block/shaft/valves/cylinders/rods are milled to spec after casting anyways.

Mind posting the last 4 of your VIN?

Haven't we seen something like this related to the poor quality of casting of our engines?... Perhaps this could be the problem leading to the CEL light... and idle dip.

Thread ->http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23726&highlight=casting

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/p...77874715_n.jpg

The oil filter might be something to be looked at, split open and analized for the presence of this mystery sand.

Woah, woah, woah, I want to get to the bottom of this too...let's not take the back door to rush to judgment here...

I'd bet something like this is VERY isolated.

I'm sure there are a few press cars out there with 50K+ miles and many members on this board have more than 15-20K miles like me. If it was a widespread issue by now it would obviously be as publicized as the engine idle chirp.

I have to agree with you I think the OP must have had the issue for a while and didn't notice it until it got really bad. It has happened to other cars in the past from what I have read but only a tiny amount and it was found in the oil during a flush because of the same idle dip and low power issues. Mine had low power but it was an ECU issue that I had fixed today at the dealer and it was only occasional.

They did an oil change and found it after when they took the cylinder out. 9205 is the last 4 of my VIN. the CEL came on after i initially noticed the problem and it went to the dealership. i dont just drive my car around if its acting up.. i take more care of it than that.

you sure you didnt try to port and polish the intake like this guy?

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=207619

Abridged version if you dont want to read the other forum: ". I was recommended to port and polish the intake and exhaust. We found out they used abrasive material to do it like gritty sand. So I got with my friend that tunes Hondas and we decided to try it ourselves. We got a bag of sandblasting sand and hooked up into the intake and started the car. We had to hold the gas so it would run. He wanted to let the engine suck in the sand through the intake so it would port it out and then push it out the ehxaust so it would port the exhaust manifold.
"

What the fuck...

On-topic I wont believe till I see it.

Interdasting. Seems kinda far-fetched though...

i think after multiple forums reposting that, and more than 200 pages of responses, the general consensus was that it was a joke. but still, read through some of the comments, its hilarity.

Its probably an isolated incident.After an engine is cast,it goes through a shaker that is supposed to breakdown the casting mold internally,then it goes through cleaning,machining and assembly.There is a possibility that the process was interrupted or incomplete,which could cause pieces of the mold to be left in the block.If this is the only case,then it will be impossible to pinpoint how it happened.

The amount of sand is probably very small,but depending where it became dislodged from,it could do extensive damage.

I had a 98 ranger that experienced a stuck thermostat,come to find out it was a piece of casting flak that broke free and got caught in between,that happened around 100k miles. At the time a my friends father worked on the mold line at the Ford Cleveland casting plant.When I asked him what happened,he explained the process and how something like that could happen.

3 other people in Jacksonville or 3 other people across the country? How did you find out about these other people?

If there was sand in the block it's probably in the coolant channels. The cylinder is milled after being cast AFAIK so nothing could be left after casting. I think this is a open deck block (or semi open).

Then there's sabotage, highly unlikely with a Japanese brand. That's more typical for GM.

Something doesn't sound quite right but then the dealer might still not be sure either. You might get a new engine and no doubt they will tear down the old one to determine the issue.

I think it was because of the way they were shipped over here. On cargo ships. Some came so dirty and full of sand/dirt/mud they you couldnt tell if it was an FRS or BRZ.

I used to work at a foundry that made car parts. Mainly Chrysler and GM, and some Toyota. Part of the final casting process is "cleaning" castings with steel shot. However there could be other scenarios for excessive sand as well.

Here is the quick and dirty of a foundry. There is quite a bit to it, but that isn't needed right now.

"Sand" is molded for the part.
Metal is poured into "sand" castings.
Once cool enough they move through shakers that remove most of the sand molding.
The castings are then "cleaned" with steel shot. (Basically it is a giant enclosed sand blaster that sprays little metal balls, the size of large grains of sand, at several directions at the casting. If a person was inside they would be stripped of their skin and down to the bone in several areas).
Then the parts are off for final grinding, polishing and inspection.

There are several scenarios in which a part may still contain a significant amount of sand. The most common would be that the machine did not have enough steel shot, the sprayers were malfunctioning, or the step was skipped.

The difference between a part that has been through the cleaning process and one that hasn't is night and day. Imagine your dirty wet foot at the beach compared to after you hose it down with water. If the part passes by any person it will be easily noticeable if there is a problem during the cleaning process. There would be little to no chance a part would get through with the cleaning step missed. Even if the steel shot was low or the sprayers were not working properly it would still likely remove the vast majority of the sand, however a chance exists of a small pocket of sand remaining in the part. Most parts are subjected to excessive cleaning beyond what is needed. This is done to cut down on the time needed for the final step, meaning less grinding. Not all parts are inspected, only a small number are.

Another scenario where excessive sand may be in the part is during the casting process. If the mold is defective part of the mold may break off and be embedded in the metal. If it is fully embedded it would be difficult to discover unless there is a failure somewhere or if a cavity is discovered. Of course if a cavity is discovered it may be filled with sand that is now in your engine or could just be an empty cavity that contained nothing (very common). The likelihood of cavities being formed depends on the size of the casting. The larger and thicker the casting the more likely for cavities.

fyi, I haven't worked in a foundry for years and certain manufacturers had much higher standards than others.

Edit: if there is a problem with sand from the parts is easily traceable and could know which parts were affected, when they were affected, and what cars they went into.

Analization with sand is a common problem at beach resorts.

Sounds painful :iono:

Sucks for the OP, though, hope your problem gets solved to your satisfaction!

no I didn't port and polish anything lol, all the info I'm recieving is from the technicians at the dealership. I'm going to call them when I land and find out if they have anymore information about what's going on in there. either way I'm being compensated and they are going to fix the problem hopefully with a replacement motor.

Not so sure this is not the case...after I read this thread last night I took a look at the oil analysis posted here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13286

They are all high in Silicon, which if you look at the Blackstone report mid way down on page one they state it comes from sealants and "sand casting". Most are in the 300+ range (well above normal)!!

Does anyone have a link to a first oil analysis from a non-BRZ-FRS? Wonder how it would compare.

Interesting that ur saying that they found the sand when they pulled off the cylinder. If most or all of the sand was on top of the piston or around/behind the rings, sounds like it came in through the intake. I could easily seem scion blaming ur intake(and saying it clamps mustve been installed loosely, allowing junk in).

Having worked in a powertrain facility for a very long time, I highly doubt it's sand left from the casting process. There is just way too much machining coolant pushed through machined parts for this to be likely.

Good luck and god speed in Afghanistan young man.