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-   BRZ First-Gen (2012+) — General Topics (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23)
-   -   BRZ vs WRX STI Clutch (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22794)

arleewa 11-22-2012 01:07 PM
BRZ vs WRX STI Clutch
 
so i got to drive my buddy's 2009 (i think?) sti not too long ago.

the BRZ is my first stick car so needless to say ive done my fair share of stalling while learning how to REALLY drive stick (i had driven other vehicles before but only in parking lots, etc.)

when i drove my friends car i noticed that the clutch's catching point was VERY early...i mean like 1 cm off the floor early. it was MUCH easier to shift in his car than in mine, or at least in my opinion.

i was just wondering if there was an explanation for this? im not a mechanical guru, but i had always assumed that more HP meant a stronger clutch and therefore a stiffer peal as well (for all i know this assumption could be HIGHLY inaccurate). this seemed to tell me the opposite.

im a little lost as to why this may be, maybe because the transmission is different? basically i was hoping someone would be able to explain this to me :) :thanks:

dori. 11-22-2012 02:13 PM
every car is different

different transmission, clutch disk, pressure plate, master/slave cylinders, pedal position...

pedal stiffness can come from the pressure plate and/or the clutch line... try driving a six puck clutch with a strong pressure plate and stainless line and you'll know

Sportsguy83 11-22-2012 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleewa (Post 570298)
so i got to drive my buddy's 2009 (i think?) sti not too long ago.

the BRZ is my first stick car so needless to say ive done my fair share of stalling while learning how to REALLY drive stick (i had driven other vehicles before but only in parking lots, etc.)

when i drove my friends car i noticed that the clutch's catching point was VERY early...i mean like 1 cm off the floor early. it was MUCH easier to shift in his car than in mine, or at least in my opinion.
The catching point has nothing to do with how strong the clutch is, or how much HP the car has. This clutch grab point can be adjusted in any car (There's a DIY thread here on how to adjust it for the BRZ). Clutch stiffness CAN be an indication of how much power the car has BUT it is not always true, as you can have a 91 civic with 108 HP and install a 4 pluck bronze clutch and high pressure plate and it will be stiff as f*$%k but that will not mean the car has any big amount of HP. In the other hand, you can have a high HP car in which you use a sprung clutch, and even though it can hold a big amount of HP, the pedal is not as stiff.

ngabdala 11-22-2012 03:35 PM
I have to say being an experienced manual transmission driver that I stall alot in the BRZ, 5200 miles later. I will be using the DIY here to adjust the catch point. I've just been too lazy

Jive Turkey 11-26-2012 01:01 AM
i came from a 2011 STi and the brz is a joke to drive compared to the STi. the clutch is lighter, has less travel, needs way less throttle input and is so much easier to drive smooth than the sti simply because its rwd and not AWD.

iLuveKetchup 11-27-2012 10:18 AM
The BRZ's clutch feels really odd to me. The clutch's resistance is not the same (or linear) through out its range. As if the first few centimeters has resistance, then all of the sudden its soft and resistance free. My '11 STi had more of a traditional (normal) clutch feel. The clutch is the only thing I do not like about the BRZ/FR-S. Feels like the 370's clutch (this is not a compliment). Yuck!

sierra 11-27-2012 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleewa (Post 570298)
when i drove my friends car i noticed that the clutch's catching point was VERY early...i mean like 1 cm off the floor early. it was MUCH easier to shift in his car than in mine, or at least in my opinion.
When the clutch engages that close to the floor it's unlikely to be disengaging properly when it's used to change gear. That's bad news for the gearbox and the clutch.
About 2/3 up from the floor is about right.

chutrain 11-27-2012 01:08 PM
The BRZ clutch took me a little to get used to. Very forgiving coming from my E30 M3 or
LGT. The LGT is extremely stiff and catchy, and the E30 is extremely sensitive and small engagement zone.

Just take your time and you'll pick up little tricks. The LGT took me a little bit as well due to the drive by wire, but go used to it after time.

DarkSunrise 11-27-2012 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleewa (Post 570298)
so i got to drive my buddy's 2009 (i think?) sti not too long ago.

the BRZ is my first stick car so needless to say ive done my fair share of stalling while learning how to REALLY drive stick (i had driven other vehicles before but only in parking lots, etc.)

when i drove my friends car i noticed that the clutch's catching point was VERY early...i mean like 1 cm off the floor early. it was MUCH easier to shift in his car than in mine, or at least in my opinion.

i was just wondering if there was an explanation for this? im not a mechanical guru, but i had always assumed that more HP meant a stronger clutch and therefore a stiffer peal as well (for all i know this assumption could be HIGHLY inaccurate). this seemed to tell me the opposite.

im a little lost as to why this may be, maybe because the transmission is different? basically i was hoping someone would be able to explain this to me :) :thanks:
I used to own an 09 STI hatch. Compared to the STI, the FR-S/BRZ clutch is much lighter and the engagement point is higher. You can lower the engagement point with the DIY mentioned above.

Once warmed up, I prefer the FR-S/BRZ transmission over the one in the STI, but the engagement point did take me a couple of weeks to really get used to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup (Post 576960)
The BRZ's clutch feels really odd to me. The clutch's resistance is not the same (or linear) through out its range. As if the first few centimeters has resistance, then all of the sudden its soft and resistance free. My '11 STi had more of a traditional (normal) clutch feel. The clutch is the only thing I do not like about the BRZ/FR-S. Feels like the 370's clutch (this is not a compliment). Yuck!
I thought the 370z's clutch was one of the strangest I've tried. When lifting your foot off the clutch pedal, it feels like the spring is stronger in the last 1-2" travel, almost launching your foot off the pedal at the end. Never felt anything like that before.

I can't really complain about the FR-S/BRZ clutch pedal, except for the high engagement point and soft spring.

arleewa 11-29-2012 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 577568)
I used to own an 09 STI hatch. Compared to the STI, the FR-S/BRZ clutch is much lighter and the engagement point is higher. You can lower the engagement point with the DIY mentioned above.

Once warmed up, I prefer the FR-S/BRZ transmission over the one in the STI, but the engagement point did take me a couple of weeks to really get used to.



I thought the 370z's clutch was one of the strangest I've tried. When lifting your foot off the clutch pedal, it feels like the spring is stronger in the last 1-2" travel, almost launching your foot off the pedal at the end. Never felt anything like that before.

I can't really complain about the FR-S/BRZ clutch pedal, except for the high engagement point and soft spring.
i just drove my other friend's 370z..i know what youre talking about. it really was a pain the butt to drive. i could NEVER see myself getting one of those as a daily drive. not fun and man is it scary changing lanes in that thing!

iLuveKetchup 11-29-2012 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 577568)
I thought the 370z's clutch was one of the strangest I've tried. When lifting your foot off the clutch pedal, it feels like the spring is stronger in the last 1-2" travel, almost launching your foot off the pedal at the end. Never felt anything like that before.
You described it exactly how I felt about the clutch. :thumbsup:

fender9530 11-29-2012 03:10 PM
I agree that the clutch is soft. It took me a while to get used to. I'm pretty smooth with it all the time now. However, when anyone else drives my car, they stall it. Happened four times with the only four people to drive my car: my dad, the mechanic at the exhaust shop, my tint guy, and the mechanic where I got my snow tires. I've only stalled it once in 5,000 miles.

AZP Installs 12-01-2012 12:52 PM
The transmission unit and associated clutch etc are completely different than that found in the awd Subies. The unit is derived off the Lexus IS, so it will feel more like a toyota or lexus.

-Mike Paisan

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RAWR BRZ 01-02-2013 04:31 AM
If you think the BRZ catch zone is off you should see my M3... It is like 2-3 times farther

gmookher 01-02-2013 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ngabdala (Post 570466)
I have to say being an experienced manual transmission driver that I stall alot in the BRZ, 5200 miles later. I will be using the DIY here to adjust the catch point. I've just been too lazy
remember less adjustment is more

OrbitalEllipses 01-02-2013 11:13 AM
This is my first manual as well, and I stalled a fair bit in the first few weeks. If I tried to describe the clutch on this car I'd say the pedal is soft, with some dead travel at the beginning and a wide area of modulation. It definitely took some getting used to, but I find it to be really forgiving though feel is definitely a problem; the friction area isn't necessarily hard to find, rather it's numb at its "borders" so to speak.

Gurus feel free to correct,

kykiee 01-02-2013 12:48 PM
DIY for Clutch Adjustment - http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

It makes a huge difference

Khánh 01-02-2013 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 577568)
I used to own an 09 STI hatch. Compared to the STI, the FR-S/BRZ clutch is much lighter and the engagement point is higher. You can lower the engagement point with the DIY mentioned above.

Once warmed up, I prefer the FR-S/BRZ transmission over the one in the STI, but the engagement point did take me a couple of weeks to really get used to.



I thought the 370z's clutch was one of the strangest I've tried. When lifting your foot off the clutch pedal, it feels like the spring is stronger in the last 1-2" travel, almost launching your foot off the pedal at the end. Never felt anything like that before.

I can't really complain about the FR-S/BRZ clutch pedal, except for the high engagement point and soft spring.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that needs some time getting used to driving frs/brz clutch.. for a minute, i thought i suck at driving stick haha

DarkSunrise 01-02-2013 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khánh (Post 639793)
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that needs some time getting used to driving frs/brz clutch.. for a minute, i thought i suck at driving stick haha
Haha yeah I felt the same way a couple of times in the first few weeks I had the car. Try the DIY clutch adjustment posted above. I eventually got that done and it helped a lot for me since I was used to cars where the clutch engages early on. Much better/more intuitive now.

Khánh 01-02-2013 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 639911)
Haha yeah I felt the same way a couple of times in the first few weeks I had the car. Try the DIY clutch adjustment posted above. I eventually got that done and it helped a lot for me since I was used to cars where the clutch engages early on. Much better/more intuitive now.
will do :thumbup:

CTB727 01-02-2013 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 639391)
This is my first manual as well, and I stalled a fair bit in the first few weeks. If I tried to describe the clutch on this car I'd say the pedal is soft, with some dead travel at the beginning and a wide area of modulation. It definitely took some getting used to, but I find it to be really forgiving though feel is definitely a problem; the friction area isn't necessarily hard to find, rather it's numb at its "borders" so to speak.

Gurus feel free to correct,
This is probably the best way to describe it.

JSUB 01-02-2013 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey (Post 574703)
i came from a 2011 STi and the brz is a joke to drive compared to the STi. the clutch is lighter, has less travel, needs way less throttle input and is so much easier to drive smooth than the sti simply because its rwd and not AWD.
Indeed ! Clutch is way easier specialy in heavy traffic compared to my past LGT. Wouldn't go back.

A5D5TRYR 01-02-2013 09:10 PM
I think I've stalled the car once but I will definitely be adjusting the clutch a bit. I'm coming from a 2010 WRX where the revs dropped too slow and made fast shifting hard where as the revs drop much quicker in this car and make leisurely shifting harder. I'm finding the revs dropping too far and I have to tap the gas to bring them back up to engage the clutch in the next gear. This is really only an issue when the trans is cold and I need to shift easy. Once it is warmed up and I can shift faster it isn't as much of an issue. Glad to hear other people have the odd issue though, makes me feel like I'm not too much of a shit driver. :D

sierra 01-02-2013 09:18 PM
I found the throttle response pulling away in first was delayed when it was new but after over 1000km it has come good. I'm assuming this was ECU learn but it was strange I only noticed it pulling away and could double clutch easily, which needs a quick response.
I wish the brakes were a bit more responsive.

Laika 01-02-2013 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A5D5TRYR (Post 640684)
I think I've stalled the car once but I will definitely be adjusting the clutch a bit. I'm coming from a 2010 WRX where the revs dropped too slow and made fast shifting hard where as the revs drop much quicker in this car and make leisurely shifting harder. I'm finding the revs dropping too far and I have to tap the gas to bring them back up to engage the clutch in the next gear. This is really only an issue when the trans is cold and I need to shift easy. Once it is warmed up and I can shift faster it isn't as much of an issue. Glad to hear other people have the odd issue though, makes me feel like I'm not too much of a shit driver. :D
Keep your foot ever so slightly on the throttle while you clutch/shift. It'll take a couple tries to find that sweet spot but you'll have extremely smooth shifts like this

A5D5TRYR 01-02-2013 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laika (Post 640846)
Keep your foot ever so slightly on the throttle while you clutch/shift. It'll take a couple tries to find that sweet spot but you'll have extremely smooth shifts like this
Thanks for the tip. I've done this a few times and I seem to be fine once it's warm but the engine RPM just doesn't act the same when it's cold and makes it really hard to engage smoothly when it's cold. I've only had the car almost two weeks so I figure with practise I'll get better. Changing out the trans fluid will likely help as well as I should be able to shift faster when it's cold. To be fair it is way easier to drive this car smoothly than my WRX was and much easier to launch without bogging the engine.

Mobius357 01-03-2013 05:04 PM
Yup, pedal feel has nothing to do with power. My 4cyl pickup is neither sporty nor powerful, but you almost have to stand on the clutch pedal.

OrbitalEllipses 01-03-2013 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 639391)
This is my first manual as well, and I stalled a fair bit in the first few weeks. If I tried to describe the clutch on this car I'd say the pedal is soft, with some dead travel at the beginning and a wide area of modulation. It definitely took some getting used to, but I find it to be really forgiving though feel is definitely a problem; the friction area isn't necessarily hard to find, rather it's numb at its "borders" so to speak.

Gurus feel free to correct,
I thought about this and I think a better way to put this is that while the friction area is wide, it is also vague feeling. You can definitely feel the point of engagement, but stray from that and I can't necessarily tell what I'm doing.

SC David 01-05-2013 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierra (Post 640699)
I found the throttle response pulling away in first was delayed when it was new but after over 1000km it has come good. I'm assuming this was ECU learn but it was strange I only noticed it pulling away and could double clutch easily, which needs a quick response.
I wish the brakes were a bit more responsive.
This is what threw me off when driving my car the first couple hundred miles. I'd have to blip the throttle and wait a couple tenths of a second before the revs would climb enough to start. I think the crappy throttle response was the worst part of this car when I first got it, but it's livened up a good bit, and now I'm up to about 700 miles. I hope it keeps improving.

Jaylyons1 01-05-2013 10:59 PM
I dislike the BRZ clutch myself. I prefer a stronger clutch with a smaller catching range. This is also the first car that I have had issues getting into 3rd. I'm hoping a short shifter will at least help this a little.


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