CAR Article: Subaru BRZ (2012) - more on the FT-86's shy sister car
 

Via CAR

Since the joint venture between Toyota and Subaru was announced in 2009, we've seen four concept cars from Toyota of its version, the FT-86/Scion FR-S. But barring some unfortunate-looking Impreza based engineering mules, we've yet to see the Subaru edition.

That situation didn't change at the recent 2011 Frankfurt Motor Show, where Subaru once again exhibited the rear-drive platform of what we now know will be called the BRZ with a transparent bodyshell rather than production panels.

But Toshio Masuda, Subaru product planning senior general manager and the man in charge of developing the BRZ, gave CAR some extra details on the upcoming mystery coupe…

Is Toyota or Subaru leading development?

If you want to see mild-mannered Subaru executives frown, feel free to mention rumours that Toyota is taking the lead in development work of the BRZ/FT-86. Masashi Uemura, Subaru's deputy general manager of corporate communications, emphatically denied that the upcoming sports cars were Toyota-led, pointing out that platform and drivetrain development, production engineering and final assembly of both cars was handled by Subaru at Subaru facilities.

To prove his point, he showed video footage of FHI boss Ikuo Mori attending a winter test session of BRZ prototypes at Subaru's Bifuka proving grounds in Hokkaido. In terms of motor show noise Subaru may well seem to be a silent partner to Toyota, but the firm insists it has played a major role in developing the BRZ/FT-86 twins.

Why isn't the BRZ all-wheel drive?

The initial concept for the FT-86 and BRZ came from Toyota, which wanted a rear-drive compact sports car. But although Subaru have a strong history of all-paw performance cars, it has no plans to build a four-wheel drive version of the BRZ. Instead, Masuda-san and his team have treated the BRZ as a challenge in vehicle dynamics. Developing optimum traction, power output and handling for the rear-drive BRZ provides lessons which Subaru's engineers can apply to its regular all-wheel drive models.

And before you ask, no, Masuda-san says Subaru have no plans to add a turbocharger to the BRZ's direct-injection FA20 2.0-litre flat-four engine.

Will the BRZ platform underpin other Subaru models?

The 'Boxer Sports Car Architecture' platform is bespoke for the BRZ and FT-86 and won't be shared with future Subaru models, officials tell CAR. However, lessons from developing the platform, with its super-low 450mm centre of gravity, could well appear in the next generation of Subaru vehicles.

Is the BRZ going to look like the FT-86?

For a company showing a see-through display model, Subaru representatives remained frustratingly opaque about what the BRZ will look like when it's unveiled at the Tokyo motor show in December 2011.

However, given the general shape of the 'BRZ Prologue' model and shared production of both the BRZ and FT-86 on Subaru's Gunma production plant in Japan, sensible money would be on a fairly similar glasshouse and central body for both models, with brand specific front and rear styling.
Does the BRZ mean we might see Subaru back in motorsports?

Subaru fans have been mourning the firm's withdrawal from the WRC in late-2008, and lamented the works rally link to roadgoing performance Subarus. Although the firm's customer teams have continued to wave the Subaru flag, most notably in the PWRC (which Subaru driver Hayden Paddon won in 2011), at the Nurburgring 24hr race (where a WRX STI finished 21st and won the SP3T class) and Japan's Super GT 300 class (where R&D Sport compete with a Super GT Legacy B4 saloon).

Earlier in his career, Masuda-san had worked in the UK with Prodrive on motorsport and performance projects such as the Impreza STI 22-B limited edition rally replica. Would we see the BRZ appearing in Super GT, FIA GT3, GT4 or a similar motorsports role?

'If you're interested in motorsports, you should definitely come and see us at the Tokyo motor show' was the grinning engineer's reply…

The Subaru BRZ is scheduled to be officially unveiled in production form at the 2011 Tokyo motor show on November 30, 2011, going on sale in spring 2012. We can only hope the late-blooming production BRZ is worth the wait.

So its not an FB20?

Yea I saw that too. First time I've seen "FA20" mentioned. It could be a misquote or typo, but then again it could be the designation for this Subaru FB20+D4S+Yamaha setup.

The whole article kinda reads like a Subaru-pleaded face-save attempt to put more credit to Subaru. IMO it's their own fault for only having the fake transparent "Prologue".

It is interesting to see another figure for the CoG: 450mm = 17.7"

I believe it's a new code name for the engine because it's not really the FB in new impreza.

Yeah subaru already officially named it the FA. it looks like the FB on the outside, but internally it's supposed to have a new bore x stroke (rumored to be 86 x 86).

http://www.media.subaru-global.com/e...z11_09_13e.pdf

"platform and drivetrain development, production engineering and final assembly of both cars was handled by Subaru at Subaru facilities."

I wonder how fanboiez feel about this?

We already knew it was being built by Subaru. Not sure I believe that all of the drivetrain development was by subaru, but the platform was stated as such years ago.

two sides to every coin:

The FT-86 will be built at Fuji Heavy’s Subaru, and when I mention that, the engineer’s pride shifts into low gear – for extra revs. Tada quickly explains that this is just contract production, and it’s the same as “when we make cars at Central Motors or Kanto Auto Works.” Both are separate companies, but they are also part of the greater Toyota empire. Toyota owns a good chunk of Fuji Heavy, so Subaru is part of the family – in a way.

Subaru will produce its own version, probably called the BRZ. Both companies also developed the car together, and that must have been an interesting exercise. Recalls Tada:

“The first year was actually quite tough. The character and processes of the two companies are quite different. In the beginning, we sat down and decided who does what. That didn’t work out very well, because of the cultural differences between the companies. When people started to become more interested in the car itself, people from both sides ended up becoming one team. In the end, it wasn’t so much Toyota doing this and Subaru doing that, but people working together with one goal.”

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...hief-engineer/

You think Toshio Masuda would lie like that right in front of their joint company? If you don't believe the senior general manager then keep on speculating.


And this is the auto-industry, not a coin flip. :)

no, he's not lying. he's embellishing the truth. yes subaru will actually build it, and yes subaru will do the development for the production process. but at the same time Tada says that, that is contract production. so is Tada lying? you be the judge...

Tada gives much more credit that subaru does:

When people started to become more interested in the car itself, people from both sides ended up becoming one team. In the end, it wasn’t so much Toyota doing this and Subaru doing that, but people working together with one goal.

on the flip side, everything that comes from subaru reeks of insecurity like the little brother who lives in his big bro's shadow...

Tada is not lying because he is not claiming the opposite of Masuda.

He says they have worked together (which I believe to be true to an extent) while Masuda credits Subaru for platform and drivetrain development, specifically.

Subaru in Toyota's shadow?
When it comes to performance vehicles in the US Toyota has been in one of the darkest corners. Quite a shame to see the biggest auto maker without a single true performance car since the '05 MRS, and before that the Supra in '98.
Subaru has nothing to be insecure about.

:party0030: :happyanim: :happy0180: :burnrubber:

to an extent? i guess you're one of those people that believe that subaru developed the whole car while toyota merely styled it, and took all the credit... :slap:

lets examine some facts:

-the engine uses D-4S, a toyota system.
-the car is code named FT86 which harks back to the AE86
-the car will use Yamaha tuning, another company that toyota has a stake in, and that is indicative of toyota involvement
-the engine is a "NEW" engine. its not an off the shelf subaru engine. in other words, its based on a subaru engine, probably the FB, but it had to be "improved" for use in this car.
-its RWD, a toyota AE86 trait, not a subaru trait
-manual AND automatic tranny is rumored to be Aisin, another company part owned by toyota. subaru uses JATCO automatics and CVTs, not Aisin automatics

the list goes on. faced with those facts, who can honestly say subaru developed the car themselves? and im talking specifically about the engine/drivetrain. it was a joint effort but imo we all get the feeling it's much more of a toyota project with subaru help, than a subaru project with toyota help.

imo people who fail to see this just arent looking at it objectively...

Yes, I still believe him to an extent, he was so general there is not much concrete evidence to believe yet. But no, I love the collaboration, for years my Toyota and Subaru have lived side-by-side, and I am not a die-hard fan of any brand really.

-Toyota's code name is ft86 (not subaru's)
-Still very limited word from Yamaha (Secrecy is not a bad thing though)
-While the engine is new, horizontally opposed engines are Subaru's stomping grounds I promise there name and engine code will be on it (FA20)
-RWD is NOT specifically a Toyota AE86 trait, and subaru has had concepts and test with RWD.
-Who provides the tranny is nearly irrelevant to platform/drivetrain development, how its made is what is important.

Lets just wait and see. I predict that most parts will be stamped with Subaru's companies, dont forget who is showing you all of the drivetrain components for this model.

And IMHO all of this "re-incarnation of the AE86" is just hype/BS to get attention. This car may share common traits, but taking free rides on the legacy of another car is cheap marketing. And when Subaru says they played an integral role in this cars mechanics, how can Toyota decide that it is the "spiritual successor to the 86"?

:word:

I so agree with this. It looks nothing like a AE86(which is a good thing)nor is it as light or based of a sub compact car(Corolla). If anything the closes Toyota it mimics is the Celica and that also came in RWD too.

And Honda did the same thing with the CRZ

As opposed to having the Impreza and ........ SVX as the sum of it's sports car history?

:word:

Says the Subaru fanboi

-yes subaru has never actually called it the "FT86", but the fact that toyota unveiled the first concept YEARS ago must mean something...

-the fact that yamaha is even involved means toyota is involved. how much is anyone's guess but it surely isnt 100% subaru.

-yes of course subaru is known for their boxer engines. and this is where i think the "controversy" comes up. subaru proudly sees this as their contribution. but one must wonder how heavy a hand toyota must have had in the development of the engine. D-4S? a toyota system. yamaha involvment? toyota connection. is toyota simply "outsourcing" the drivetrain development to subaru? :iono:

-subaru is known for their AWD. IIRC this will only be subaru's second RWD car...

-who provides the tranny is NOT irrelevant. subaru uses CVTs and automatics from jatco. toyota uses Aisin. this car will have an Aisin tranny. now if this was a subaru developed car, why not use the trannies that they have been using? why use a toyota part? unless of course toyota provides the tranny, and subaru simply bolts it up for them in the factory...

the bottomline is this. everywhere you look, the car is bursting with toyota involvement. from the D-4S system to yamaha to Aisin, AND... AND the styling is 100% toyota.

what i get from the interviews is that toyota is the unofficial "leader" of the project. subaru is a partner in name but not exactly equal. exterior design is 100% toyota. drivetrain is subaru based but has a lot of toyota technology/components. how "subaru" is the engine when it contains so much toyota technology? subaru hardly uses gasoline direct injection, AND they are using D-4S. now do you think subaru engineers will work on the engine tuning exclusively while toyota engineers, who actually developed the system, stand idly by?

to me it's looking a lot more like toyota is "outsourcing" some of the development to subaru and calling it a joint venture. subaru is very defensive about this. when the press ask if toyota is the leader they boast proudly of their involvement. toyota doesnt do this. they dont have to. perhaps to them the car speaks for itself...

Did I miss something or does everyone care a bit too much about how much involvement is in this car by each company?

I can care less if Honda had a hand in it or Suzuki... If the specs are right and drives like a champ, I don't know if it matters at all...

Maybe I'm just missing something?

Pretty much every comment in this thread has sounded like the product of a fanboy from one side or the other.

My opinion? I'm happy that both sides are proud enough of the car to enter into a pissing contest over who gets to take the credit. It sounds like both sides contributed substantially to the project such that the car isn't purely a Toyota, nor is it purely a Subaru.

Except me cause I'm a fanboi of both LOL...

My first car was a 91 Camry DX from my dad, then I got myself a 2002 WRX 5 door hatch when I was 21, totaled it in 6 months because that's the car I learned to drive stick in lol... Then got myself a beater 90 Integra LS that my brother in law totaled but not his fault... Got myself a 2005 X-Runner before giving him my Integra...

I really don't think anyone is mad either way, but man both companies are great... When I owned my WRX, it opened me up to the "online communities" with i-club... Really taught me that my vehicle was more than just a vehicle at the time... It was a culture... Then I dropped out of it after totaling the ride and was a bit shook up by the whole accident that I decided to drive something I won't get too attached to...

As it turns out, the Integra was a dang blast and I learned to heel toe in it... That opened up so many doors...

Figured I grew up a little bit, had a choice between a RX-8 or a X-Runner late 2004 and decided I wanted to own a truck for utility but still have enough sport in it to have fun... I am having an absolute BLAST with the truck and even became moderator at customtacos.com... Organized a bunch of meets again and hate to part with the truck ever...

I have grew a bit more now and with a baby here and a 2nd soon on the way, it makes no sense to buy this car, but I'm gonna buy this car for my daily driver, and sell the truck to get a van... This is the only reason why I'm even here, or else I'd save up for a van (which I won't be driving) and keep the truck... OR go back to a WRX 5 door hatch with even more power than it did in 2002...

I swear, either company to me don't matter... The two vehicles I have had the most fun with have been the WRX even though it was short lived (had like $3,000 invested in the audio at the time) and my truck which is IMO the best looking of the lot out the box and surely the most surprising to own... Not to mention the community both of these vehicles were attached to was / is nothing less than stellar...

I came to this board because it has the most activity, but man it would be a dark day to see this forum torn apart by two different factions both wanting the same thing over such a trivial thing as which one of the two great companies had more of a hand in developing this car...

Hmmm. Wonder what that could mean. Maybe they're just showing the GT300 Legacy... Or maybe they've got a surprise for us

Who gives a crap if the car turns out to be a blast to drive? I couldn't care what badge was on it or who designed the damn car.

I'll bet you anything the first few mod photos we see of this new vehicle will be the "debadged" look...

I've been to too many forums of too many first year production cars to not win this bet LOL...

Yup, the interview with Tada gives us a very good idea of just how much involvement Toyota has from concept, execution to engineering of every aspect of the FT-86. To say that all the hard work was done by just Subaru alone is laughable.

I saw it like this :bellyroll:

Lol prob be my first mod hahahah.

Clean boot looks best

NINJA EDIT:
But if the production car comes out like the MKII i think it would take some body work for a "debadge" look to work. I think people would go for the "rebadge" look instead.

ill just point and laugh at people like this: :bellyroll:

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/u...to/photo-7.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/u.../photo-2-1.jpg

I have to say, this one's pretty weak. The transmission in question was also used in the Honda S2000 and the Mazda RX8/MX5. More generally speaking, Aisin (of which Toyota only owns 30%) also has also supplied transmissions to: Alfa Romeo, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Holden, Honda, Isuzu, Lancia, Land Rover, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Opel, Peugeot, Pontiac, Porsche, Renault, Saab, Saturn, Suzuki and Volvo. So the fact that this car uses an Aisin tranny doesn't really prove anything either way.


That said, the guy at Subaru claiming the credit is the "deputy general manager of corporate communications". He's a PR guy, and I would bet multiple dollars that the guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow. I'm much more inclined to believe Tada-san's explanation, given that he was the guy in charge of the design team:

Each company tried to design half of a car, but that didn't really work. So the project evolved past X% Toyota + Y% Subaru and became a single team of passionate car guys, working together to make a car with the best DNA of both companies.

:sigh: Toyota vs Subaru...awd vs rwd...na vs turbo...my d*** vs your d***...I'm just excited the damn car is finally going to be released

Maybe as well as seeing the real BRZ aswell as a rally/racing BRZ? :thumbup:


I just hope we get the BRZ here in NZ aswell as Toyota Verson.
I went into the local dealership and got told it all depended on what Subaru Australia wanted to bring in.
Subaru NZ used to have the choice what models were brought in to sell to the public.
In the past we had got a few odd ball models that never sold in Oz.
Like the Twin carb RX coupe (Possum Borne 1st Subaru Rally car)

So I hope that Australian CEO allows it in. I remember he was fearly anti bringing in anthing that wasnt AWD

who's missing on that list? subaru. to me it speaks volumes. you and others may see it otherwise. but one has to wonder, why on earth would a supposedly subaru developed car, made in a subaru factory, use a toyota transmission that they never used before?

Not me. The only times my cars get debadged/rebadged is when the badges get stolen... stupid poor honda thieves.

lol you saw it wrong :)

They also only used AWD transmissions and probably never had a need to look for anything other than the brand they were using.

Again though, who gives a crap?

I only give a crap that the transmission doesn't have gears made of papier-mâché like the Toyota C64 transmission and has shift quality approaching the Honda S2000.

After that, I'm in the same boat as Dave-ROR: I'm more interested in the driving experience than leg-humping the brand. Subaru and Toyota can both take all the credit/blame they want; I don't care as long as the car doesn't suck.

And since Aisin made the S2000 trans (which is still the best shifting transmission I've ever driven, and that list of cars does span european, asian and american cars) I'm hoping the feel will be similar to it :)

Although the seating diagram image thing makes it look like a direct linkage won't be easily possible. :(

this

Madfast,
Did you actually read the second half of my post? I'm not in any way suggesting that Subaru did all the work. As I said in my last post, that paper pusher at Subaru is an asshat. Tada-san himself, the guy who actually oversaw the engineers from Toyota and Subaru who designed this car, the guy that half the people on this site regard as the next best thing to Jesus, was quoted (in the snippet that you posted in this very thread) as saying that it was one team that designed this car. Not a team from Toyota and a team from Subaru, but one team of people from both companies.


As for the transmission, firstly, Aisin =\= Toyota. Toyota owns 30% of Aisin. Aisin is its own company with its own engineers, its own factories and its own bean counters. The Aisin transmission in the Honda S2000 is no more a Toyota product than the Denso ECU in my WRX.

Honda had never used an Aisin transmission before putting the AZ6 in the S2000. Mazda had never used an Aisin transmission before putting the AZ6 in the RX8. The fact that no Subaru has had an Aisin transmission before the BRZ does actually suggest Toyota involvement, I agree, but it doesn't prove anything. That's my only beef with your argument. I'm not questioning your conclusion, only the logic you used to reach it.

greg, where did you get the info on Masuda? He is credited in the article as being the product planning senior general manager, hardly a PR position.

Also, designing and engineering are two very different steps in production... the article is mentioning the latter.

Tada is a chief engineer at Toyota. He has been heavily involved in the development of many Toyotas in the past including sports models and is credited everywhere with being the chief architect of this car. He wasn't the guy drawing design sketches at toyota's ED2 studio or Calty.