Brakes for Turbo Upgrade?
 

I am considering putting a turbo in my FRS. This is really a street car primarily, but will see a few HPDE per year. I am concerned the stock breaks will not be up to the task. Even with upgraded pads and lines... I am not sure the brakes will avoid serious fade during HPDE track sessions. Seeing as this is mostly a street car, however, I am not sure a 2-3K big brake kit is worth it (or in the cards financially). Is there anything in between? I was thinking a STI Brembo or Evo disc and caliper upgrade would be a good option, but only one guy I know of on the forum is running that set up (with good results I may add). Any advice would be appreciated.

^ Sounds like you answered your own question...

AP Kit will cost you substantially more and even a low cost off the shelf system like Stoptech would be your next best choice financially.

4/2 pot wrx + pads + lines + fluid... Shouldnt even have to spend over a G.

IB4thatsnotanupgrade.

I looked at the stoptechs. Seems like stock sized rotors, even with slots, won't help you all that much to make it worth it.

Well if you want the best system out there then you going to want to pick up a system from Essex Parts. They have put together several systems to suite.

However I disagree with your comment. The Stoptech system is certainly a step above the factory system on this car. Whether its 328mm is irrelevant. Its going to cool the face of the rotor quicker than OEM and handle more abuse without overheating. It also retains the factory bias so you can reuse your rear set up without throwing off the ABS system and making your car brake less efficiently than OEM. If your after looks and need hardcore cooling capabilities they have a 355x32 option but then again thats overkill. Your just going to need 18" wheels and larger tires at that point. No reason going with the biggest set up out there. You can get the same effect from smaller properly designed systems.

Maybe I'll start with the stoptech's and see how things go fro there... I don't plan on massive hp.... 50 to 80 over stock maybe.

Unless your taking it to the track a big brake upgrade my not be worth it. Are you going to hauling it down from high speeds more frequently or are you just gonna do short blasts? I'd upgrade pads, SS lines and fluid first then contemplate if you need new calipers and rotors too or if rotors will bee good. Id vote for just rotors but it all depends on how you're gonna drive.

Probably a wise choice.

Hey op...lets consider this, do you know how much braking force your stock setup produces? have you felt it?

For me, I take my factory setup to its limit before i decide if I need better options.

Performance pads, SS lines, HP brake fluid, and proper ducting... does go a long way even in HPDE. And honestly that's a much better place to start than loading the brakes up with larger rotors and calipers. Also a primary aid for braking performance is good wheels and tires, which should be included in your budget.

The idea of bigger brakes without dialing it in, don't always yield the results you need/want. I remember seeing somebody retrofitting a 350z brembo 4pot brake upgrade to a sentra and not getting any better brake performance than a 2 piston stock.

Think about your goals and how much abuse your car is going to have. If you plan on doing some serious time trials, or pump out nearly 100% more power than stock, after upgrades wheels and tires, then doing a major brake upgrade might be necessary.

I think cooling ducts is a grossly underrated option. I will try the pad, SS lines, race fluid, and cooling duct/hose route first. It might be enough to hold back heat soak.

Wish a vendor produced a kit like for the BRZ.
http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/s...o3/arrows4.jpg
Edit: Just found this.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11041

I know there is one for the FR-S but Im not satisfied with it. It just comes out of the fender instead of hooking up behind the brakes.

I will say that I took the FR-S out this weekend to a road course race with the second longest straight in the U.S and got up to 115 before braking into a long sweeping corner at around 60. hese brakes stock are VERY GOOD without any modifications so I am going to venture to guess that just by upgrading the pads, fluid, lines, and adding PROPER ducting would be more than sufficient for a turbo setup.

I ran 10 times over the course of two days on a 1.8 mile track so I would say that I got a proper feel for the braking capability. Time in between track time was about 30 minutes to an hour.

I was in a novice group and was doing this for the first time. This car is EASY to learn. Novice drivers in Porches ( A lot of them as this was a Porche Club of America event) were having to let me by, by the time I went around the third time I was pushing the car to its limits while they were still learning the track.

Agreed, those are pretty inlets but the important part of a ducting kit is that it directs air through the center of the rotor and uses a nice 3 inch hose.

Our kit for Impreza:
http://www.racecompengineering.com/m...g/r/grkbk2.jpg

Most are more than happy to spend 2 or 3 grand on a BBK and not as excited to get a part that isn't as flashy or "cool." But it works very well on the track in keeping temps low...also prolonging pad and rotor life. We'd consider doing a kit for the BRZ but I'm not sure the demand would be there.

On topic, something like a Ferodo 2500 pads would be all you need to worry about for a street driven turbo car. If you're hitting the track, then yes worry about track pads, BBKs and/or ducting depending on your tire choice. The LGT front rotor upgrade would be ultra cheap and give you some more thermal capacity at the expense of heat. I don't think anyone has done that yet though, so it's just a thought at this point.

- Andrew

If you guys produced a kit like this for the BRZ (especially with the rotor shield like that) i'd be throwing money at you all the way from California.

Good to know :lol:

Maybe I'll start a separate gauging interest thread.

- Andrew

You got to make one for the FR-S as well. :bonk:

Yes! The rotor shield and the molded bumper inlet are key. Anyone can put together a hose kit. Just my $0.02!

^ Essex Parts is creating something for the BRZ..

Hawk HPS pads, Motul 5.1 fluid ... be done with it.

Or .. wait for Stoptech to put out a Sport Kit for our car. 4 rotors, pads, lines, CHEAP

Stoptech has a Sport Kit already, its around $550 i think.

With the car already balanced and several trackers seeing good trail braking results, I cant imagine that a 4 corner brake upgrade is necessary to get the performance you absolutely need for HPDE.

What we want is getting repeated shorter stopping distance with no fade. While wheels, tires, pads can address the majority of stopping distance. As well as SS Lines, HP Fluid, and ducting can address majority of fade. Increasing the rotor size and effective caliper clamp area, is something that seems to almost see no major benefit cost wise.To me at least...

considering we are only stopping a car that weighs roughly 2800lbs, the factory rotor area is 11.4 rear, 11.6 front, and already has a stopping distance average of 60-0 @ 115ft on its factory tires, rubber lines, OEM pads, and OEM fluid.

How does this compare? a 1992 Mazda rx7 twin turbo, one of the great skidpad performers ever. Has roughly 2800-2900lbs. The factory rotor area is 11.5 all around. With 4 piston calipers up front. Rubber lines, and 225/50 and 16x8 all around. Made a Average of 114ft from 60-0.

The AWD Mitsubishi Evo VIII MR with 3250lbs, on 12.7' Brembo rotors and 4-piston calipers front, and 12' Brembo rotors and 2-piston calipers rear. Made an average of 112ft. Offical reports of 110ft.

So for the FRS, a average of 115ft stock compared to those 2 performance models, you can see that those factory brakes are holding up VERY well. And all you have to do is improve it, is pads, fluid, lines, ducting, tires. and im betting that you would be averaging 110-112ft with very minimal fade. All on factory equipment that is easy to maintain. and mind you that also those 2 cars are already track ready.

Consider this.

We've been running road courses with nothing but good fluid and race pads, and haven't had any problems. Here's a video of us at ACS; we're braking from ~130mph to ~45 entering turn 3. You can see the shift light in 5th in the banking :)

I think that a BBK is overkill until you learn the limits of your car and are actually experiencing problems. Stick to just good pads and fluid.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waCr19ZM640"]BRZ at Auto Club Speedway - YouTube[/ame]

better tires, race pads and fluid. That's all you'll need to be track ready. Save the BBK for swaggin on the streets

Listen to this man.

For 90% of the people out there the stock system is absolutely fine. Even though we love to sell BBK's. ;)

We're running ours with just lines, pads, fluid, tires and perfect for what we need right now. Pads make all the difference in the world.

135? How long is that straight? Or are you turbo'd. MIR has a .7 mile straight and I was only able to get up to 115-116. Maybe because of the turn I was coming out of. I dunno. Im sure a manual in the straight would be faster but I would not think by that much.

I apologize for getting a bit off-topic.

Our car is N/A, and stock power.

From the exit of T21 to the entry of T1 (front straight) is about 0.6 miles. I exit T21 at about 85 mph, and am WOT to the braking zone of T3. Using the NASCAR line allows me to to hit the limiter in 5th before having to brake for T3. T16-21 are subjective as to how they're coned, and in our video, they are coned "tight". However, the car has enough grip (and not enough power) that I'm able to go WOT from T13 all the way to T3, with just a hint of countersteer exiting T20. Our setup has changed since the video was taken, and I'm confident that I'd be able to shave off at least a second off of our lap time, and possibly warrant a shift into 6th before T3.

The BRZ is exceptionally aerodynamic, and picks up speed very quickly for only having 200hp once you're over 100 mph. As a point of reference, my S2k exits T17 5mph faster, and has a ~55-60 hp advantage, but hits the same Vmax going into T1. However, it has more power (and more tire), and doesn't scrub speed going through T1/2, whereas the BRZ does.

The video was taken with 215/40/17 Star Specs (200TW tires), and a Berk Muffler Delete.

We'll be back at ACS for 86Fest on 10/7/2012, and be giving ride-alongs :)

http://www.s2ki.com/home/wp-content/...-big-track.jpg

That track seems very similar to Miami Homestead. Great analysis.

Aha. I see. The track I was on I was coming out of the corner leading onto the straight at about 55-60. That explains it.:D

Turbo, HPDE? I give you 3 laps at the HPDE before you park the car. I would expect some reliability issues for the first few events. Stock brakes are fine for HPDE to start. Get some good pads.

Just because you have a turbo doesn't mean that you *need* to use 100% of it's capability on track. Look at the letters HPDE

High
Performance
Drivers
Education

Notice no "R" in there for "race." There is no trophy.

That said, I wouldn't bother spending more than it takes to get STi brakes on there.

Scott

Point well taken. Thanks for the excellent post.

For me the bigger brakes were more to combat fade/overheating as I thought they would deal with the added heat better. I always thought the stopping distance was great on the stock car, especially with upgraded tires. But the higher speeds you are going to see with a turbo led me to believe the brakes would be getting hot faster, and perhaps a big brake kit would be of assistance in this regard.

Sounds like pads, lines and fluid are the place to start. And maybe even stop. I am concerned the STi Brembos will alter the cars brake bias in such a way as to induce over/under steer on corner entry. Time will tell as more people mod their brakes and add turbos I suppose.

No trophy indeed. But going fast is fun... and I don't care how much faster or slower everyone else is going. That being said, I'm not going to try and destroy my everyday driver at the track. lol.

I agree with a few things you're implying but I wouldn't have been a Debbie Downer about it though! haha

FI doesn't mean you'll be necessarily faster at the track. On the street, yes, almost always. At the track...? I see more slow guys in FI get beat by faster guys in the same car NA. Happens a lot in the NSX community.

FI also means less reliability and other issues you may not be prepared to deal with. FI puts a strain on almost ALL components. If you start going to HPDE you'll notice it's really more about preservation and keeping your temps cool. I can always tell when a guy is about tracking or about HP. The track guy prioritizes oil pressure, coolant/oil temps, etc.. a HP guy prioritizes AFR, Fuel Press, etc... If you're FI and a track rat.. well, be prepared! It'll get complicated.

There are some additional advantages to a big brake kit that haven't been yet discussed in this thread:

Weight/Rotating Mass
The competition brake systems we are putting together using AP Racing components are 5 to 10 lbs. less unsprung weight per front corner vs. the OEM equipment. Our smaller Sprint system knocks 20 lbs. off the nose of the car, improving overall F/R weight distribution. At this time, I don't believe weight reduction of that magnitude is possible via aftermarket wheels/tires or suspension on this car.

There are a whole body of work out there discussing the merits of lightweight wheels, and the importance of low rotating mass. The same is true of brake discs. A heavier brake disc is more difficult to accelerate, just as a heavier wheel is. On a low powered car such as these, lower mass is even more critical.

Adding horsepower improves your power-to-weight ratio. Saving weight also improves your power-to-weight ratio, but also makes the car handle better, it's easier on tires, easier on brakes, more fuel efficient, etc.

Spares/Long-term running costs
While there is a higher initial cost of a big brake kit vs. simply upgrading the pads and discs, the long-terming running costs of a brake system are sometimes actually cheaper.

Track compounds in the pad shape we use in our brake systems are less expensive than the same compound in the OEM FR-S/BRZ shape. They also have a 50% thicker friction puck. Since the discs in the system are far superior, the pads will also be running cooler. All of that adds up to far superior wear rates per pad set. Let's say the pads for our system are $175, while the OEM are $225. If you would normally go through 4 sets of OEM shape pads in a season, that's $900 in pads. If you only go through 3 sets of pads with our system, that's $525, a savings of $375. Over three seasons, that's $1,125 in pad savings alone. That is already half of the initial investment in a kit, and that doesn't factor in any of the other benefits.

Disc replacements for BBK's are obviously more expensive, but it's a similar situation. The discs in our system are going to last far longer than an OEM or OEM-style replacement disc. They have tons of features specifically designed to deal with track temperatures, including specialized crack resistant metallurgy. For every few sets of OEM style discs you go through, you'll use one set of the AP discs. I just had a customer on the vette forum post that he got two full seasons out of one pair of our discs. He went on to say he had 3 dozen cracked OEM discs in his garage...lol!

Because overall system temperatures will remain lower with a big brake kit, you will be putting a lot less heat into your brake fluid, and will likely have to bleed your brakes a lot less. Racing brake fluid isn't cheap.

Wear and Tear
If you've ever tracked a car much, you know that there is a lot of wear and tear on parts surrounding the brakes. A ton of heat is built up in the area of the bearings, ball joints, etc. Running a big brake system keeps overall temperatures lower. Also, the aluminum had on the discs is better at keeping heat out of the bearing area.

Convenience, Enjoyment, and Track Time
This is one huge factor that always seems to be overlooked...if you've ever been lying under the car in the pits bleeding your brakes while your friends are zooming by, it just plain sucks. If you've ever driven half a session, and then your brakes started to fade, right when you were getting in the groove and setting your best times...it sucks. If you were playing cat and mouse with a friend and you have to let up because your brakes are flaking out...it sucks. Track time is expensive. You want to use it having fun and driving hard, not babying your brakes and *****footing around. A sorted, track optimized brake system allows you to forget about the brakes and just drive. You'll also spend less time bleeding, and you probably won't feel the need to tote as many spares around.

Resale value of car and brake system
If you try to sell your car in five years, and your OEM calipers are a burnt mess, that's likely going to cause some concern for the buyer. That's why most of the Porsche guys with PCCB's still run aftermarket iron disc systems at the track. They put the OEM ceramics in a box, and put them back on the car when they sell it.
Additionally, a brake system from a top-tier manufacturer holds its value fairly well on the used market. I've seen some of our kits sell for 60+% of their original price. That means you pay $2000-$2500, gain all the benefits of the system for the years you own it, then get $1200 back on them when you sell them. Between the resale value and the consumable savings, you're basically covered on the total cost of the system.

Feel/Confidence
Along the same lines to some of what I wrote above, having confidence in your brakes is an awesome feeling on track. It allows you to focus on everything else going on out there. Having confidence allows you to push harder and improve your driving. If you're in a competitive situation (Time attack or wheel-to-wheel), this can make a huge difference in the outcome.

Initial Cash Outlay
If you plan to buy front and rear race pads, SS lines, good fluid, and a duct kit, you're probably looking at what, $750? What do you have to show for it? Pads and SS lines are consumable items.

Many of the things I noted above are outside of, or in addition to, what most people typically associate with a big brake system. Do you absolutely NEED a big brake kit. No, particularly if you only drive on the street. The OEM brakes will stop the car. If you look carefully at the situation however, a BBK becomes a more logical purchase than you originally thought. People tend to dwell on the upfront investment of $2k, but you have to look deeper than that to understand what you're really getting long-term. In my opinion, if you plan to track your car regularly and keep it for 3 years or longer, a quality BBK makes a whole lot of sense.

Generally if you run r-compound tires you should start at least thinking about a BBK. You can get away with race pads and fluid but you'll be happier and more worry-free if you step up to a quality BBK like JRitts AP kit.

If you run sticky street tires it will still help for the reason's JRitt mentioned, but if it's only an occasional HPDE car than you have less to worry about with just pads and fluid.

- Andrew

Hey, would you mind expanding on the LGT rotor upgrade? Are they direct bolt on just thicker?

Thanks

So if you are running a 350hp car mainly on the street and tracking it twice a year, what is the recommended breaks? Im leaning towards Brembo but I dont want breaks that will ruin my street driving experience.

Holy back from the dead Batman! ;)

I finished my FT86 Brake Upgrade Guide a while back. Check it out...should answer some questions.

Front Brakes
I'd recommend first trying just pads (Ferodo DS2500 street, Ferodo DS1.11 track), Spiegler SS brake lines, and fluid (AP Racing Super 600) and seeing if that does the trick for you. It will on the street for sure. If you start running into fade on the track, your next step would be brake ducts, and then a Big Brake Kit. If you want to keep your stock wheels for either street or track, our AP Racing Factory BBK is a great option and will fit OEM wheels without a spacer.

Rear Brakes
Unless you have deep pockets or really want the look of a rear brake kit, just do pads and lines on the rear of the car. You won't recoup your money in performance gains on the rear of the car...it's an area of diminishing returns. The FT86 is fairly easy on the rear brakes (even with a turbo).

Large capacity brakes with aggressive street pads, to preserve the experience.

Stock brakes with race pads would work, but you probably won't like them on the street.

Are you willing to swap pads on and off JUST for the track day?

This.

I've got dedicated track pad and rotors. It's less than an hour of work to swap them out before a track event. Best of both worlds.

Depending on the pads you run, you could just swap the pads (the different pads just need to be compatible with each other).

Get better pads and fluid/lines as others have stated... but to improve braking performance, be sure to not go cheap on tires and get quality rubber.

Your brakes are only as good as your tires.

-alex

I've been running the Stoptech 328 kit and love it. With the higher heat capacity a street pad will last much longer then on the stock setup.

There is definelty lots of stopping power.