A letter to the Dealership Manager...
 

Hi everyone,



I wrote an email to the dealership that I ordered my BRZ with, addressing my concerns with some of the major issues highlighted in the TSB section.



I really feel bad for loosing heart on this wonderful and highly anticipated platform, let alone for those of you that have been affected with the CEL issues. Pending the answer that the Manager comes back with, if it is remotely close to anything like "We are unaware of these problems", I am out. :(


(Note : Names and dealership withheld until final verdict. Pardon the bad English)









Hello Mr _______ (Store Manager),

I am writing to highlight a concern that myself, along with many other BRZ enthusiasts (or would be buyers) are having. I would appreciate if you would be able to advise.


I ordered a BRZ Limited 6MT at Subaru______ in late July and has been eagerly awaiting its delivery which I was told by Mike _____, would arrive approximately in the December time-frame. In good faith, I have also made a deposit of $500 through Mike.


Recently however, my research into the car has brought to my attention that a significant number of BRZ / FRS customers are having major issues with the engines (i.e failing vvti system, chirping noise, recurring Engine check lights, cam sprockets replacements, engine oil controller issues, rough idle and rpm fluctuations leading to car stalling etc) that occurs at varying intervals and mileage across multiple cars (hundreds). Some couldn’t even make the drive home during delivery day. The affected FRS and BRZ owners have collectively reported their problems and dealership experiences here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15577
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10069
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16369

Understanding that first year models are going to have “teething” issues, I believe most customers can be tolerant of minor things like condensation in the tail lights, rattles here and there as long TSBs remedy these issues. However, the major engine problems I highlighted above does not seem to be quick or easy fix and requires significant downtime for owners affected. To date, Subaru (and Scion) had not have a satisfying answer as to the cause of engine failure and parts failure of this magnitude. Some owners went for two months with the cars in the shop still waiting on parts, others have had the problems repeat after significant engine parts replacement.

As such, I would like to know:

1) 1) Given these widely known issues across different states and dealerships, what level of support (aside from factory warranty) can I expect from Subaru ______should my BRZ be afflicted with the engine issues noted above? (i.e loaner car, payment reimbursements should the brand new car be out for more than a month etc, and/or possible car replacement if affected and multiple earnest repair attempts are futile).

2) 2) Has the Gunma factory in Japan isolated the engine problems and are proactively replacing defective parts at the assembly line, preventing these issues for new deliveries due later this year?

I hope you can understand, as enthused I am about the BRZ / FRS, I simply cannot justify spending $32K OTR on a brand new car with such significant issues without the above two concerns properly addressed. Respectfully, I hinge my decision to cancel my order (and have my refundable deposit returned to my card) on Subaru ______’s position to this matter.

Sincerely,

__________

I would really like to know the answer to question #2.

It would really be interesting to see what their reply would be. Already cross shopping a used BMW 135i, late model s2000, WRX now..... :brokenheart:

Nice move, laying the proverbial cards on the table. I'm also interested in the pending response...

A dealership is geared toward sales. He will tell you what you want to hear. It's a matter of if his response is true or not.

In sales, on any product just not cars, a potential customer's objections are given an answer true/false resulting in a sale.

Sales can not be made when a customer has objections. Objections thrive when resisted/dismissed and perish when they are addressed.

When is your expected delivery? I recommend you do the same with your dealership as well, we need the consumer's voices heard!

My guesses:

1. You'll get a warranty and a loaner.
2. They won't know...if you do get an answer, it'll be a made-up answer to give you a warm and fuzzy...

They aren't gonna know shit. You should probably cancel your order and buy something else...actually, that may be the only way they get their shit together. Most of us here have already bought. They already have our money. If people who have only put down deposits started backing out, that would probably light a fire under them to get this sorted out. Good luck.

Sho, you are probably right about the warm and fuzzy. I know Ngabdala's sentiments as well. However, I have a knack for sniffing out sincerity. Like I said if its any BS remotely resembling a cookie cutter response, its hasta la vista baby. I just feel bad about the BS that some of the owners affected have to deal with..."Yours is the only car with this issue.." yea right.

Let our voices be heard. Pre-order fellows band together! ;)

Great job. I think rather than sending this to a small time retail manager it should go to corporate and the press.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Heck, I would have been happy with that. All I got in response to the chirping and idle dip is "it's normal"...:sigh:

Any day now. I'll probably have the discussion when I pick it up before signing the papers.

the answer is yes, since they've already fixed the headlight condensation issue

unless you specifically mean the came and CEL issues then idk.

but they have fixed that so it is a good sign

This needs to be done. Most of the time the dealer knows as much as we do and many aren't even aware of the issue. This letter will only bring the dealer up to speed.

My FR-S is at the shop as of yesterday and I believe I was the first one to come in with an issue (of the few they sold so far).

+1

I sent in a similar concern to a few dealers. They never replied back.

I've never noticed how many 'chirping' issues there were on this forum. Great. Mine is coming in 2 weeks. I guess all I can do now is pray mine isn't affected.

Oh Autogods...hear my plea!!!!

Mine has the chirping and occasional idle dip, no CELs in over 8300 miles and it's a pretty early car (low 400s prod number).

you got nothing to lose sending this kind of e-mail to dealer.
my personal opinion, they probably don't care unless your purchased car has a problem. if you cancel your car, then other customer will buy it since this car is in high demand. as i am working in big company and dealing with other suppliers / customers, we/they just ensure that we/they take care of problems if any but nothing will be provided until we/they actually buy the product.

If I were the dealership manager I would just send your deposit back without comment. Concerns or not, you come across as a customer that will be nothing but problems.

Since "The customer is always right," the best solution here is to make sure you aren't a customer.

Just because you read something on the internet doesn't make it true.

Scott

I would make sure you get a loaner for any lengthy repairs. Other than that you can always contact SOA because your dealership is not taking care of a problem like the CEL issue you mentioned in your OP.

LOL. You may be right. The question is: Are you just going to roll over and play dead if your new car starts acting up?

Well this is a load of garbage. Expressing concern in a well thought out, intelligent manner means he's going to be a problem customer? With the list of people just on this forum who have been affected by this issue growing every day, I think it's perfectly fair for him to ask these questions.

On the "Just because you read it on the internet..." note, here's a little factoid for you. The dealership where I bought my car has had a third of the FR-S's it's sold come back for this issue. The dealership where mine was fixed had four on the lot for the same issue when I checked in last Friday. Is that "real world" enough for you?

Making completely baseless judgements against "what you heard on the internet" is just as bad as starting a panic because you heard something on the internet. Do the research, on the internet, the real world, or otherwise, and make a judgement based on the facts. Once you've done that, do us a favor and refrain from belittling others who have judged it worrisome that so many people have had issues with their brand new cars.

/rant.

Nathan

I disagree. $30k is alot of money. Whoever can answer those questions will earn his business.

@OP
1) will depend on each individual dealership's management
2) like someone who stated before, the factory will rectify problems (such as leaking taillights) if found. So far the CEL fix has been recalled for further review. No news (at least not from dealerships) at this time.

If I were you, I'd keep the deposit there. If Subaru can find the CEL problem, they will fix it before releasing the next batch of vehicles. Even if they don't, they're working on solving the problem, and the fix will be covered with the warranty. Honestly the dealerships, especially Subaru ones, are not afraid of losing a preorder on a BRZ, there are many others in line for one who will jump on yours.

x2

IMHO, It's better to write such letter to SOA.

Great letter! Hopefully they can answer you in a timely manner...and if they do; hopefully it's not just bullpoop.

I think it would also be interesting if you sent a letter like this to head corporate and see what they have to say about this...
(Ex. Are they aware of this and if they are going to issue TSB or Recall for these soon...)

Anyways; subscribed, to see what the reply is.

Yea i was referring to CEL and engine issues, since i am still waiting on my car to come in/be built. I'd gladly take light condensation over engine issues.

Folks, thanks for all your inputs, both the supporters of the letter and the naysayers. I don't have time arguing my rational for those of you who see this as pointless as others here like Sho, Rampage, Subienate and ngab have typed the responses right off my fingertips and I could not have argued better but both sides have valid points!

This is what you guys are here for:

The Owner/Manager responded and UNFORTUNATELY, it IS a cookie cutter response or, bullpoop as some of you may call it, albeit very diplomatic one. Here is the first paragraph:

" In all honesty, I have not seen nor heard of any issues whatsoever with BRZ products. We have sold approximately 15 to date (the most in the Southwest) and not one has come into the dealership for any repair whatsoever... let alone those you described below. I'm at a complete loss as to what people are indicating about the car. If there were vehicle issues, I would be open and honest... however, a lack of any issues has been our experience. Furthermore, I would be EXTREMELY cautious in utilizing any online forums for technical expertise or decision making... My experience in the forums is 99% of what's stated is misrepresented, assumptions, and/or outright mistruths when it comes to any sense or understanding of the technical operation of vehicles (I read these forums from time to time and cringe at the information published to be fact when it is truly pure speculation without a justifiable basis)."

So here's the dealio. I am rather disappointed with this response. Either the owner/manager is outright unaware that the BRZ has these issues or he is calling me a liar. I think my mind is already made up but something in me feel this isn't right and I will be sending a response soon. Here's where I will need your help:


1) For those of you who are experiencing the CEL and other major engine issues, would you be so kind as to provide your name and the dealership (Subaru or SCion) that is doing your warranty work? I am particularly interested to see who has brought their car in, here in the East valley of Phoenix AZ.


2) Can anyone provide actual TSB or work order numbers that I can help the manager reference? We need to proof this is the real world we are talking about. As you all know, everything you see in this forum is covered in "mistruths". (end of sarcasm)
(And no, I don't have time to SEARCH, as I have other real world issues that will need my attention tonight....I want real case or TSB # when your car has actually being brought in...by the real world you (?) Kidding aside, I need real references!


3) I am a noob here, so if you have friends on here (or in the real world ) who are having this CEL, engine shudder, loss of power, rough idle nightmare, please point them to this thread or PM me.


Lastly, anyone has a direct contact email to someone higher up in corporate Subaru? Let me know. The last I searched on Subaru's website, the "contact us" page simply took me to a "Feedback" form which I think, will stop right at the customer service level and won't go any higher.

Thanks

I would lean more towards them being clueless than them calling you a liar. They are in the business to sell cars and make money...they know little to nothing about the product they sell....and I guarantee the first thing running through their mind when a customer pulls out a bunch of printed out forum posts is "great...another f'ing know-it-all is trying to tell me how to do my job"...not a good way to start off a dealer visit.

Things like this need to be handled very delicately. You have to drop hints, and subtle suggestions, and kind of lead them to the solution. This way, they'll think they're a genius and they figured it out all on their own, and they won't feel offended by you telling them how to do their job.

I agree that the letter should be delivered to subaru Corporate, not surprised on how the manager responded at all.

Sho, agreed.

For those still on the waiting list, does this give you guys some glimmer of hope?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17158

If truly only a certain batch (VIN 26%% to 27%%) are affected, is there a official source from Subaru that supports this?

Obviously not true; take a look at this thread...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=CEL+idle+dip

The only way a Dealership will have knowledge of the problem is if they have seen th problem come into the Dealership or second they are members of this forum. As I work for a Dealership I am one of the only people that know of concerns. I just had another technician ask me about check engine lights on the FRS/BRZ because his friend had an issue. You also talk about TSB' but I was in the system yesterday and we have no other TSB other then the daytime running lights. Well that's to my knowledge and I couldn't find anything else.

Like others said, it is very possible that they don't know about the problems yet.

Because contrary to what you may believe, the issues, while severe, aren't actually widespread.

Looking at the pool of BRZ/FR-S owners you have to realize that not all of them post on the forum and further, not all of them have the CEL issue.

Combined (between BRZ/FR-S) there have been about 8000 cars sold in the US. On the forum about 75 people (not all from the US, mind) have reported the CEL issue. Even if you take into account the people that have the problem that don't post, the CEL affects about 1% of the cars here. So it is not unreasonable that the dealer hasn't heard of it.

Now my advice to you is, if you really don't want to deal with this issue, WAIT. Unless this car was to be your only means of transportation in the near future I think you can wait a couple months or even until the next model year when everything's sorted out.

I mean, what if the dealer DID know about the CEL issue? How would that stop them from selling you a car that could potentially develop it?

:( this is poopie.

Dude, seriously - what?!!

I put a $20 deposit down on a new TV at Best Buy. Supposed to come in next week. But I see on the net people are having issues with this TV, so I wrote a long letter to the manager at Best Buy stating my displeasure with the TV I haven't even bought, and demand answers as to what he's going to do about it. That's pretty much how your letter reads, except for a car.

If the dealership won't give you your deposit back, then you can go into reasons etc. but the dealer is just the point of sales and service station - they're not making the car. You need to take this up with Subaru.

Dear Subaru: I had a deposit on a new BRZ but reading about people's issues on the Internet has scared me away. What are you going to do about it?

Well guess what? Subaru knows the issues. When the cars get the CEL and need fixing, the dealers are calling SOA. SOA is paying for the repairs, not the dealer. So Subaru knows about each and every car that has come in to be fixed. And since they don't want to be fixing every car they sell, they're looking in to why there is an issue and how to fix it.

Your letter is pointless, but sending it to Subaru might get you a generic letter back and a $100 off your next Subaru coupon. If enough people write letters, then Subaru might make a blanket statement to the automotive press like: "We're aware of some first year issues with the BRZ and we're looking in to it. Get off our backs. We'll let you know when we've figured it out."

Totally agree with Ashtray, have consumers deteriorated to the point where they're sending angry letters on products they haven't even purchased yet? People are acting like this car is already off warranty and everyone is getting screwed by the evil dealerships. First run cars almost always have teething problems. 458 Italias are still burning to the ground for crying out loud hahaha

I honestly wouldn't be scared of buying a new BRZ or FR-S. As others have stated, the CEL and idle issues seem big because the people with issues are making the most noise over it, but those of us who aren't having issues are quiet.

8,500 miles on my car since June 2nd and the only thing on your list I've experienced has been the chirping. Having owned and driven other direct injection cars can tell you that those cars make very similar noises.

i tried to write nicely to show this point but you wrote straight. :thumbup:

yeah. WAIT or buy it and warranty will fix it.