Eliminating torque dip
 

Is it necessary to swap out stock header to address torque dip or can a tune alone do the trick? I prefer to have a cat for sound and environmental reasons.

A supercharger takes care of that.

The headers do help decrease most of the torque dip. A tune can also help, but preferably with the help of a new header. Or like the comment above, boosting resolves that too. It all depends on what application you plan on sticking with (NA/Boost). If you add a turbo, you'll have to change the headers anyways. You can get for example, a JDL UEL/EL and be able to add a SC without replacing the headers.

A tune will help, but not too much.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121315

E85 tune will do it if you have E85 available.

My understanding is that removing the cats (either with an aftermarket header or by decating the OEM one) is what allows the tune to improve the torque dip. On top of that, the 2017+ engine changes make the tune+header less noticeable vs. the pre-2017 models.

Catless header and tune. Like 80% gone and for sure noticeable driving round town

I run a catted header (ft86 speed factory) with a tune from Mike @Xero-Limit and I don't seem to have the dip anymore.

I believe the simplest answer, already addressed by folks here is this.

A tune alone will improve power all around a bit, but will still give you the torque dip feeling, just improved.

A header and tune gives the feeling of a smooth torque curve, AKA dip eliminated.

You can easily eliminate the torque dip, by staying above it. When you drive the car seriously you will never see that dip.


I dunno, kids these days. ;)

Agreed. Other than the first gear dip, you can keep the revs up high and never get back into that dip. Downshift when needed and when you should, and you won't have to worry about it.

That dip is there to remind you that these engines are a balance between decent performance and good fuel efficiency.

Perhaps the OP should consider an automatic only 2.0 liter Supra instead of a twin.

Thx for explaining the reason for the torque dip. I never knew it was meant to remind me of something

Some headers will put a torque hump where the dip was. I personally prefer to drive above 4500 rpm and replace the short block every year. I also masturbate with a shoe rasp in my ass and wear my shoes on the wrong feet.

You're right, wanting to be able to keep up with traffic without having to wring out the engine is for mouth breathers.

The torque dip is there to remind us of how Vtec feels.

Hey no problem. The advice is free the sarcasm will cost you.

Whatever turns you on. We're not judging.

Keeping the RPM's above the dip DURING ACCELERATION is hardly wringing out the engine unless you're redlining it every shift. You don't need to redline every shift to get a decent performance out of this engine.

And you'll only feel the dip when you're accelerating. Once you get to the speed you like, upshift to an overdrive gear to take advantage of the good fuel economy this engine provides. Drop down a gear or two when it's time to accelerate again. It's not that difficult and only takes a half a second to perform.

Besides, it's way more fun to drive these cars when you're making use of the entire power band.

Torque dip or not you will still have to wring it out to stay up with traffic. Until there is a bend in the road and everyone freaks out and slows dow to 20.

My car will leave a stocker in the dust no matter how its driven

Heck, my stocker does that.

Header and tune makes the Powerband feel more usable to me. Levels out the character of the engine.
Mainly for everyday situations where you use 1-2-3 gears to get up to speed and you aren't redlining every shift.

If you have the engine living above 5000rpm I don't find that it feels much quicker.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "much" quicker. The HP continues to rise above 5k RPM, so it certainly becomes quicker. You could say it doesn't feel much quicker from any small interval of RPM, like 4500-5000, or 5000-5500, etc. But the difference between 3000 and 5000 compared to 3000 and 6500 will be a good bit. This isn't a fast car by any means, so at no point do you feel MUCH quicker really, but there is certainly a difference.

The sarcasm is strong in this one. Like it, I do....

Hah! That’s what my buddy with an s2000 says when he drives my car. It’s like there’s a vtec crossover at 4500 rpm.

Stock feels quick above 5 grand because it's not quick below 5 grand.

Take this car are a good twisty road and the torque dip is irrelevant. That’s where this car shines.

Do Yaris' and corollas exist in your traffic?

I honestly have no idea how anyone can think this car "cannot keep up with traffic" unless said traffic comprises of nothing but cars with over 300 hp and using all 300 horses on a daily basis at all times.

Because i am old and conservative with money, well old anyway. I figured that because i knew that i would do mods to the engine at some point that i would get Ecutech and and a good tune for the stock engine. Delicious send a tune and i was impressed with what it did for the dip and driving experience. Since then i did install a SC. Needles to say it took care of any problems concerning the dip.

To be honest, i ordered the Sprintex before they were even shipping in this country. Bill was kind enough to send me a tune while i was waiting.

Agree! The BRZ/86 certainly is no muscle car, but I also wonder about the 'can't keep up with traffic' comments'. Is their 'traffic' on a quarter mile drag strip? Maybe the Nurburgring (though I think the car would acquit itself quite well on a road course)? Or are they the usual internet experts that have never actually driven the car themselves?

I'll admit to having been unduly influenced by the chorus of 'no power!' comments that kept me from considering the car for the first few years it was out. My wife encouraged me to drive one. Over the process of buying her Crosstrek, she gently pushed me into sitting in one on the showroom floor, and then taking it out for a test drive.

My first reaction on the road was, what the hell were all those people whining about? This car is a blast!

It's not the kind of car to rev the engine at stoplights and challenge Camaro owners to a sprint to the next light, but I've never once felt in 'danger' or that I couldn't keep up with any traffic I've found on any roads in the northeast.

YMMV.

It's *all* benchracers with no license,

with a few "OVER 9000!!!" fantasists.

Question for those with 2017+ cars:

Did a tune and/or header make a meaningful difference for you? One you can feel in the seat of your pants?

I'd been going back and forth about whether or not to do a tune with or without a header on my car. I've read all the threads and watched all the youtube videos. From what I understand, it seems the benefits of a tune and header are most noticeable on pre-2017 cars, and less so on 2017+.

Has anyone with a 2017+ done a tune w/ or w/o a header? Can you really feel the difference? I don't care about shaving tenths of a second off some time, or a performance improvement that can only be measured on a dyno or a stopwatch. To me it would only be worthwhile if I can feel it in the seat of my pants (the only dyno that matters to me).

Thanks!

My 2018 BRZ improved in some aspects after loading the stage 1 tune from OFT. The most noticeable was the cold starts and RPMS in general. Car was quieter and took less time to settle down. Performance wise, like most tunes, you'll see the difference in power on the higher RPMs, after 4000. The torque dip was in a way diminished, but it was still noticeable, just not as evident as its stock form. Comparing the stage one, against a stage 2, which is the header version, the power difference is substantially greater. No torque dip, better throttle response, and certainly more power along the powerband.

I'm not saying a stage 1 will knock your socks off, but you can easily feel the difference in power. For $400, with the ability to switch between tunes with the touch of a button, is worth trying. Plus you can load an E85 tune within 3 minutes, switch back if you get tired or weary of it.

Thank you! That was the best and most useful review of the topic I've seen!

I have a 2020 with 10k miles on it and did the OFT Stage 1 tune about 4,000 miles ago. Consistent with above, it was helpful and worth it in many respects but did not do a ton to cure the torque dip issue.

Last week I installed JDL UEL catless headers and switched to the Stage 2+ e85 tune (OFT off-the-shelf). And yes - it makes a HUGE seat of the pants difference. With respect to the torque dip, its pretty much completely gone.

You don't get the same kick that I used to get with my 2007 BMW 335 coupe when the turbos kicked in, but it still moves pretty quick from a dead stop. But the increase in speed/rpm/power feels almost completely linear. It's funny, because stock the car feels a little like a turbo (not in a good way) with the torque dip being sort of a big, slow spool up delay.

Most importantly, the elimination of the dip means you get into the 4,000 - 5,000 rpm range (where the engine really sings) that much quicker. And once you are there, particularly in 3rd, the car actually does feel fast. Prior to the mods, it felt like I was always working my rear end off to get into that range and always having to think about it for downshift purposes for something like making a pass on the highway. Now I don't have to think about it at all.

Throw in the sound of the exhaust and Subie UEL burble (and the fact that I did a large stereo/speaker upgrade), and the car is more or less perfect for what I want it to be right now.

I have a 2020. I did the OFT Stage 1 and did not feel it helped much with the torque dip.

Switched to the Wayno Roms tune and that really helped smooth out the dip. You don't really feel the car falling into it, but get a nice little kick around 5K RPMs.

I have a 2020 BRZ and installed a UEL header and did a stage 2 tune the same day (Ecutek and Delicious Tuning). There is a very noticeable difference. I drove it the first 4,500 miles entirely stock. You feel that "suck-back" much sooner, and the entire powerband feels smoother

Yes. I did both. Mine is a 2017.

I drove my car for a couple of weeks on oft stg1 before doing the header and eventually getting a custom tune from @tomm.brz

I also drove a friend's car with a custom tune with only a catback.

The header and tune made the most difference. It felt better up top with the canned stg2 tune, and then Tommasos tune made the mid range feel stronger with same feel uptop.

Oft stg1 tune with stock header made no difference to me. My friends custom tuned catback car didn't feel any different to me either.

Dollars spent is probably important with expectations. 1-2k is probably the sweet spot. Anything beyond you are chasing a specific sound or that extra 10% power. Which if fine if money isn't a factor.


I got a gently used gruppe-s header off a friend for $400 cad. Plus the cost of the OFT and custom tune I am well under 1.5k. I'm happy with the end result.

Thank you very much! These observations are appreciated, and very useful!

I find it hard to interpret a dyno result like "4 ft-lb improvement in torque at 3500 rpm", because I don't know how that actually feels. These kinds of comments, on what it's like to actually drive the car and not just data, are much more meaningful!

Thank you! Is your header catted or catless?

In my area emissions are taken seriously, and I probably couldn't get away with a catless header. I've seen some comments that it's removal of the cat that makes the most difference with a header.