"Stage 2" bolt-ons worth it?
 

Daily driver + occasional AutoX + potential very occasional track day (for fun, so probably would only push car to 95% and intersperse some 75%/cool down laps)

Currently have JDL UEL + K&N drop-in + Perrin Intake Tube + Fujitsubo Authorize S Axle back + OTS tune.

Feeling itchy for just a little more HP (maybe 10-15), but my understanding is there isn't much more I can do in the way of bolt-ons to squeeze out some more HP.

I used to own an 2000 Impreza 2.5RS and had ALL the "bolt-ons", plus lightened flywheel, pulleys, cams. Although, the pulleys/flywheel didn't actually add HP, it did make the car more lively/responsive.

I've considered going FI. I can afford it, per se, but not sure I want the potential headaches. I prefer to have a reliable daily-driver vs a "tuner car" that I'm always fiddling with to keep in on the road.

Are there any other non-internal mods I missing that could help me squeeze out a few more HP?

There isn't a lot of E85 in my area...but maybe a flex fuel kit?

Maybe just pulleys, over-pipe, mid-pipe, and custom tune would be enough to deliver a little more pep?

I realize now that this is mostly rambling, I try to edit it later. In the meantime, feel free to share any insights.

You're going to spend a fortune and not really make much more. 10hp won't be noticeable in my opinion. Might as well boost it. For the same cost at least you'll make good power

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Header and E85 is all you need. I learnt the hard way. Only thing worth it power wise on this car is boost. I didnt notice the torque dip that people mentioned when my car was stock. I just thought it was slow. Even with stage 2+ it's still slow.

If you want easy bolt on boost go Supercharger. If you want more head room for power and more torque go turbo. JDL Turbski is what I recommend as it is what I'm saving for.

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I second the nod at getting a supercharger. I have been in a car that has the Sprintex/Innovate 210 supercharger. It's cheap, and the car pulls really nicely., He hasn't had a single issue with it yet in the past 2 years. Best thing? He has stock clutch and fuel mods. He can also take it off in a matter of an hour or two.

I too have the 210, but fun of driving came from GOOD tires. No drifting but great turns. You have a tune, turn off the nannies and hold on.
I know they are expensive but I use AD08s or their current name. And yes they do work in the rain.

Yes.

Custom tune might give you another 5 horsepower if you're lucky. If you're tracking the car, I would think twice before going the forced induction route. Too many tales of woe for me.

I did the full blown NA route throwing tons of money for minimal gains doing basically everything short of opening the engine. It was a fun experience but never enough. I have a sprintex 210 now, its a blast, I don’t necessarily regret my decisions I’ve taken for my car build for various reasons.
But in hindsight. I would probably have gone straight to a small quick spooling 9psi turbo from the beginning. Best bang for buck and reliability. That plus Oil cooler, catch can, hood vents, and wheels/tires.

I got rid of my car sure to weak tranny after dropping too much into it. If you want reliable power... Don't boost or get a different tranny

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Where you're at, the next best bang for your buck would be a supercharger. That just entails deciding which one you want.

Yeah, or just learn to be happy with more reliability and spend the $5k on something else.

Out of boost it’s really not much less reliable or different. If you are tracking the car it’s obviously a lot different, but for a DD only car, you do a few pulls here and there for 5-10seconds hitting boost, but mostly just cruising. Its fun having the power when you want and as long as setup properly and don’t get greedy on boost, its not really that much more unreliable.

As far as staying NA goes.
WMI
Grimmspeed CAI
Billet power blocks
Ace header 250 header
Catless frontpipe
Custom tune
Lightweight flywheel
Under-driven water/alt pulleys
Fluidampr crank pulley

Other weight reduction like shorai battery, remove trunk junk, rear seat delete, carbon fiber driveshaft, willwood 4pot bbk, lightweight wheels, lightweight seats.

Drag reduction Aero like front lip, front wheel deflectors, full under-panels, rear diffuser, rear spats, side skirt, rear spoiler, trd fender fins, trd side stabilizer, trd trunk stabilizer, trd aero turbulator,
More aggressive gearing with a 4.56FD swap

That will pretty much max out your power/straight line performance if staying NA. Its a small fortune for little return, ask me how i know...But It does all add up and make a difference, and doesn’t hurt reliability.

I don't think 5-10 HP is going to give you any more noticeable power than what you've already got. UEL + Tune already gives the car the kick/pep that people crave. A bump on top of that is just icing. e85/Flex Fuel is going to be the next contribution you're going to really feel in the butt dyno on NA.

From there, it comes down to how much do you want to spend. Do you just want to invest a little more to close-out the missing bolt-on options? Or do you want spend big bucks to chase the last 5% of what's possible on a reasonable NA set-up (e.g. buying the best/premium components, dyno tune, etc)?

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Uncatted front pipe and Flex Fuel/e85 are probably the most accessible means to add the 10-15 HP you're looking for. Tack on a custom Ecutek remote tune to round up the package. Not the cheapest, but the most obvious and reasonable to max out the engine on NA bolt-ons.

If you want to increase responsiveness, you already know what's coming because you've been there. Lightweight rotating components, chassis reinforcements/stiffer bushings, etc.

?

I'm not familiar.

i dont know if ur dead set on more power, but coilovers and a more race inspired seat will make you feel like you are on a fast and furious special mission.

Water methanol injection.
Methanol is almost identical to E85, the water portion adds increased cooling vs ethanol and especially regular pump gas, which allows for continuous consistent power pull after pull with no heat soak issues. Methanol has similar “octane rating” to ethanol but you are obviously using a lower % since you are spraying in addition to your normal fuel instead of replacing your fuel entirely.

Haha! I already feel like that every time I turn of the traction control! :burnrubber:

Meh...that sounds just as "dangerous" as FI.

I was also not too familiar with the Billet Power Blocks, those are intriguing for a few more HP. Most of the info I've found was done pre 2017. Is there any data on the effect when compared to the revised intake manifold on the 2017+?

I may end up just putting a few more dollars into aero, bushings, etc and go on a vacation. Idk if I'm ready to take the FI plunge. Decisions, decisions. :sigh:

It can be setup to be reliable, and safely make more power from higher effective octane allowing you to safely advance timing and also have cooler intake temps.

Not sure how much testing has been done on 17+ Aluminum manifold with the BPB. But the same principle and functionality still applies. You would need to research if the runner length changed from plastic manifold to aluminum manifold to really determine. But It works by increasing runner length to shift the power band down a little to meaten it up a bit. And with vvt tuning you can regain most of the top end so you effectively gain about 4whp for about 1400rpm of your peak power band 5400-6800rpm at the cost of about 2whp lost for the last 600rpm 6900-7500rpm. Still a total net gain since double the increase for double the time vs the decrease.

You already have the 2017 4.3 FD ratio so less beneficial than if you had a 4.1 FD ratio but switching to a 4.44 or 4.56 is a great NA option, makes the car a little faster to top of each gear making it feel a lot faster.

Weight reduction adds up and goes a long way. From a power to weight standpoint so not exactly the same as just increasing power. But going from say 2800lbs with 200whp to 2600lbs with 200whp would effectively be like giving you 15whp. Meaning 2800lbs + 215whp = same power to weight ratio as 2600lbs + 200whp. This effect is slightly enhanced when it is rotational mass IE lightweight wheels or willwood 4 pot bbk.

Thanks for the replies.

I'm going to keep looking into the BPB.

I do a lot of secluded highway driving at 5am, so I'm often cruising at 85mph. Can't go any shorter on the gearing.

I've already done a lighter battery, lighter wheels, lighter header, lighter spoiler. I'd like to keep some of the DD comforts, so there isn't a ton more to gain without going pretty extreme. The willwood brake kit would save weight vs the PP, but isn't cheap and hard to justify when I already have brembos.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719
or
https://torqamp.com/

I was skeptical about the BPB, but most people liked it for DD. Only drawback was at the high end which I spend little time at. So I tried them and I have to say they work. Car just feels better through the mid range. This is butt dyno so take it for what it is worth. I am also stage 2 uel catless header with high flow cat in the front pipe. Also panel filter and Perrin silicone intake. OFT tune. Mine is a 2016 so don’t know about 2017. Only thing left to do for me really is a protune, as I am staying NA.

I would love to try one of those electric turbos, but not going there.

Sounds like were about the same place with our cars/mods. I may try them out before pulling the trigger on FI. Thanks!

It's a waste of money. You'll regret doing it.

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Care to add any facts/context to your strong statement?

As long as you understand what they do then I don't see why you shouldn't try them. For me they would never work and you will want a re-tune for the blocks. For FI, they would probably be useless but there is a used market for them.

Pet peeve of mine, but wtf does stage 2 even mean? It's like it implies there is a standard that nobody follows. Who decided what stage 2 is? Is my stage 2 the same as your stage 2? Do you have to have a stage 2 clutch if you are modded to stage 2? :mad0260:

I think the stages were designed by companies to make purchasing easier for marketing to customers. Mostly in the Subaru community, some stages do have merit, but they have and will always be a simplification of the intention behind the product.

It can be dangerous, but honestly if someone is buying things without consulting others, they will learn that a "stage 2 clutch" from one company does not mean it is in any way comparable to another's. When their stage 2 eBay clutch slips and their stage 2 Exedy clutch does not, they'll learn to look for the torque rating and ignore the stage completely. The arbitrary staging behind a group of modifications will always be impossible to quantify unless an entire platform and its enthusiasts adhere to it.

I'm sure you know this, but it also frustrates me and I had to find a productive way of venting.

You have experience with these? I do.

Yeah I know. I just think it's funny and annoying since it doesn't really mean anything. It's just marketing wank that people bought into as technical terminology.

They worked fine for me when I was using them. I had a OFT tune designed for them and there was no appreciable loss in high end. There are dyno's that prove this as well. On E85 they would be a determent, but if I was only on 93 NA I wouldn't hesitate to reinstall them.


Shiv's BPB tuned dyno here:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...69&postcount=1

It is kinda dumb when you think about it. I just couldn't think of a shorter way to title the topic. "Stages" make me think of buying upgrades on the original Playstation Gran Turismo. :iono:

Well back in the day when I got my 04 WRX, the stages were clear.

Stage 1 - tune alone maybe drop in filter. Everything else stock other than maybe axkeback exhaust for sound.
Stage 2 - after market up pipe / down pipe and tune as a minimum.
Stage 3 - bigger turbo and supportive mods, injectors, bigger inter cooler, boost solenoid etc.

There may be some other mods like tgv deletes and various port and polished intakes , throttle bodies, exhaust manifolds , etc that we’re done as well.

This is generally speaking and it was likely taken from some previous car that was modified in a similar way.

I would argue if you apply this to the twins.

Stage 1 - tune and drop in filter
Stage 2 - header - other exhaust changes and tune
Stage 3 - FI.

But I am not in charge of setting the stages so take it FWIW.

I think since you are saving for FI, what you mean is BPB is a small improvement compared to FI and not likely to satisfy your power desire if you have driven a FI car. ( my mind reading may not be that good though)

I would say that if you stay NA they are worth it for DD and autox. The price is a bit high for improvement but not out of control. I did see a copy of them on amazon for 90 bucks, so if you are cheap you could try those.

I'd say...

Stage 1 = Header and Tune (because that's the first things you really need)
Stage 2 = Intake/Drop-in, rest of exhaust system, E85 tune, etc
Stage 3 = FI or internals/full-NA build

So by my own system, I really wasn't very accurate with the "stages" :bonk:

Your psychic powers may need calibration. I'm a pretty patient person, the BPB could keep me entertained for 6-12 months. Couple hundred $$$ for a year of driving improvement would be worth it to me.

I have not driven (or rode in) a FI twin, which is probably a good thing. I enjoy the current power level and driving the car, in general, 85% of the time. Sometimes, though, I feel like car is just begging for more oomph!

I'm only saying it's a waste because NA power on this car no matter what is trash. If you want better linear power just go supercharger. Above and beyond TURBO

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I have an 04 WRX at stage 2, so I see the lack of torque/power on a weekly basis as I switch back and forth. But I have to say the BRZ is a bit more fun through the twisties, but both are great.

In a straight line both get into illegal territory quick. The difference is I need to be in the 4K-6k rpm range for fun with the BRZ where the WRX is 2000-4500. If I am anywhere near 6000 on my WRX I am in triple digits and likely being very irresponsible on public roads.

So does that make catted header stg 1 and catless header stage 1.5? Does that make higher end headers stg 1.75 and a crappy header like the Megan or PLM stg .9? It's all baseless. I always laugh when they do this with clutches. I could care less about them stage number attached to it, I want to know what the torque rating is.

Baseless indeed. You seem more like an engineer than a marketer ;)

LOL I actually used to do a lot of marketing for the company, creating flyers and brochures. If I had an engineering degree it would say "Kellogg's Corn Flakes" on the back.

:cheers: