left foot braking transitions
 

hey yall. i'm new to left foot braking.

i know people say don't use it on a corner you'll have to downshift on, but i've started left-foot-braking 100% of the time because it makes more sense in my head... the problem comes when i need to emergency brake past a gear when i start braking from the left foot... what winds up happening is the brake pedal is not wide enough to have both my feet on it so i have to actually keep both my feet rotated at 45* angles in order to fit both of them on the brake pedal. which works out for the right foot since that's how i heel-toe, but it's pretty awkard getting the left foot back to the clutch from having my left heel all the way against my right heel... does anyone else actually do this mid-brake foot transition? do you just get a wider brake pedal? do you need to move the other pedals at all? any suggestions for wider brake pedals?

I would probably try to stop using 2 feet to brake and learn how to heel-toe properly.

if i don't try to left foot brake, i heel-toe just fine.

I think you've just solved your own problem!

the answer to my problem regarding left-foot-braking is to not left-foot-brake?

Unless your car is automatic, yeah I'd say so.

Not sure what emergency brake means.. but I don't LFB when I need to heel-toe. But from what I am reading, you are using your left foot for braking and at the same time the right foot on the brakes (when you need to heel-toe)?

why

something unexpected happens and you're about to hit someone so you need to brake.

i start with the left foot. and as the revs get down at some point i need to downshift. so while im still braking i change which foot i'm using which means both feet need to be on the pedal at one point, then i can use the clutch and heel-toe to get the throttle blip

even if it's not an unexpected emergency. if you can smoothly do the braking-foot transition, why not LFB on every corner entry?

Because if you are heel-toeing correctly you'll still have a foot on the brake, heel on the gas and left foot available for the clutch to downshift. Also I think trying to use the left foot on brake as well as heel toeing you is causing confusion (hence your need for a wider brake pedal). No idea why you would want to have 2 feet on one pedal when you have 3 pedals that need attention.

So if it's an emergency, shouldn't you come to a complete stop? Rev matching to the lower gear is the least of my worry when it's an emergency.
If you can somehow get on/off the brakes smoothly with both feet, then more power to you. I've never seen or heard anyone doing this.

Here's my LFB with heel-toe at an autox.
[ame]http://youtu.be/Ru3biKSUhXw?t=7s[/ame]

are you implying that you are able to do overlapped throttle->brake transitions with only your right foot?

wow, awesome. thanks for posting this. this is pretty much exactly how my feet wind up being. you dont have any issue having to lift/shift the left foot to get at the clutch?

What I'm basically implying is that if you have to do an emergency stop, just use your right foot if you don't want a high chance of fuckin up because you slipped off the brake pedal because you have both feet on it.

which is why i have to rotate them 45... so they dont slip off... which is why i'm asking about a wider pedal... LFB gains you a huge amount of time... when going from gas->brake... you dont have to pick up and move your foot over and then apply brake... you just start applying brake.

Not sure panic imma-hit-somethin-hard braking is the time to be concerned about how quickly you get back up to speed.

But, instead of all of that feet confusion, why not just learn how to downshift without the clutch? If your heel/toe is that good, you can't be far off from being able to do it without moving your left foot.

I do find it odd that you're presenting a dire must-stop-nao scenario with a strong interest in how you'll get back to speed before you've even successfully avoided whatever the emergency was.

this thread gave me cancer

That's a good point. Could just pop it in neutral in that situation. I can shift without the clutch just fine on a dog box like a motorcycle but i donno... i guess i don't trust synchro manuals? What about the other situation I was talking about? If you can manage a smooth foot transition on the brake, why not LFB for every corner? Even corners where you need to downshift?

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sorry. chemo's a bitch. have fun with that.

I don't think so, I never really thought about it. :iono:

If you have a Moto-east (Ecutek) tune, it has blip throttle downshift.

Simmons

OP - Why do you think you need to all of the sudden LFB?

Don't need it. Prefer it though. Do it all the time now... foot just stays there and goes to use the clutch when I need it. I can do the transition from lfb to rfb with the pedal down just fine without fucking up the brake pressure, but turning my leg so far to the side is kinda annoying. it would be easier with a wider pedal and I figured other people would have figured out a better pedal setup already...





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This is not really true, it may feel like it is however...Most people that lfb end up braking when it is not needed, too often, or even dragging brakes (in my personal attempts as well).

Go listen to some podcasts at http://autocrosstalk.com and hear what all the top autox drivers in the country think about it. Most all of them say LFB is not faster and don't bother learning to switch if you already RFB. In the end it's your preference, but I don't think there is any benefit unless you really really master it. Even then, the benefit is so minimal it's likely a wash.

i'm not talking about lap time. i mean time from the point where you start trying to brake, to the point where you are actually braking. that doesn't have hardly any impact on laptime until you're at insane times i understand. but in traffic, having that extra few ms might help.

You should know where your braking points are ahead of time, get your eyes up and look for them. You shouldn't be reacting, your inputs should be planned.

If you can't brake hard enough with just your left foot, there is something physically wrong with you. I have confidence that you can get into ABS with just your left foot, there is no reason to have both feet on the brake pedal.

Left foot braking is a technique that helps rotate cars that have less than ideal balance, like many awd or fwd cars. It is also helpful in rally or low grip situations where you have to use weight transfer to accommodate low grip.

Brush braking, trail braking, and left foot braking are of limited use in a twin. Stop using so much brake and just lift to transfer weight, you'll go faster.

Brakes only slow you down.

My bad, thought this was the tracking / autocross forum.

Personally I would be trying avoid putting 2 feet on the same pedal, but that's just me. Hope you find a solution to your problem.

Dude, how fucked up is your driving that you need to worry about that 100 ms or so that it takes to switch foot. Why are you worried about emergency braking AND downshifting? Are you like, waving thru traffic in your car like you would in a bike? I do not understand the point of this thread at all. Left foot braking main advantage is not the time saved while switching from gas to brake, its to be able to keep accelerating and transfert weight to the front during a turn (so like a small touch on the brakes mid corner) to balance the car out and/or correct understeer. Left foot braking has no place nor utility in city (aka street legal) driving.

wow

I had it all typed up, was going to find the specific podcast with Ross Bentley being interviewed (that @justinco also listens to ;) ) to confirm that according to the data it's ~0.02s faster to LFB than RFB. About how I've been LFB most of the year but I'm going to stop now and focus on how I use the brake, being smooth on and off and taking advantage of the time between throttle off and brake on to gauge my speed for the corner, I've got other aspects of my driving to work on, but that's all irrelevant isn't it?

@alex.s don't worry about your left foot braking, give yourself more distance, slow down when you can't see ahead and anticipate potential hazards. That's what will save your car and your life, not 0.02 seconds quicker to the brakes. Traffic on public roads doesn't operate at that time scale, your reaction time is already 0.25 seconds, you're already SOL if you're trying to find 0.02 seconds of safety margin. Let the damn car stall if you have to panic brake and you forget to put it in neutral, who gives a shit, there's nothing you can do to prevent being rear ended or blind sided or dodging the cow in the road other than awareness awareness awareness.

Are you running in stock? Are aftermarket pedals even legal in stock class?

I had them on my old car to get the pedals closer and (brake pedal) higher.

left foot braking transitions
 

I didn’t read the whole thread so I may be repeating what others have said. Before I started to LFB I learned to heal toe. When I first learned to heal toe I was using my toe on the gas and my heal on the brake. Then I added in LFB and that is when I learned that I was doing heal toe all wrong. You need to use your toe on the brake and your heal on the gas or else transitions from LFB to RFB are really awkward. It didn’t take long to retrain my brain to do it correctly. I also learned that applying various driving techniques on track but not in my daily drive was tricky. These things only became habit when I decided to apply them to my daily commute.

taking it from Ross Bentley, "Its better to be a great right foot braker than a mediocre left foot braker"

it takes lots of practice to get the same sensitivity as your right foot. alot of top tier driver growing up in carting that's why they're so good with their left foot.

if you worry about brake/throttle overlap during initial corner entry to save a few tenth of a sec, just heel toe and get back on throttle as quick as you can. its not like we're Lewis Hamilton here :)

In autox it's good to be able to so quickly go from brake to gas though when you're in a slalom. On a road course there isn't as much demand for quick transitions from gas to brake so in that case it's not as valuable. But I think it's safe to say that most if not all competitive autoxers LFB. But I'm realizing now that the OP was solely talking about daily commutes which is kind of pointless.

my problem was I started driving older manual cars with a really heavy clutch when I first got my license. so my left foot is absolutely useless when it come to LFB, I tried to practice on the street but I dont think i will get decent at it...at least not for a long while.

the first time i tried to LFB on one of my run, it didnt go that well. I over braked the car because my left foot was so used to the clutch :lol:

Hahaha. Same here. It wasn't until I started doing it on my daily commute (only when it was safe to do so) that it became more natural. After a few days I got better and at the next event I had more success. Once I got a feel for it I no longer needed to do it on a daily basis and at events I just pick it right back up. The next challenge was to train myself not to ride the brake the whole run because it fades the pads quick.

Even that's debatable, depends on the car depends on the slalom and there's very few drivers with the talent to actually take advantage of that. Us average Joe's are probably faster with a consistent speed or gradual Accel or decel as needed.

Dear god.... This guy isn't event talking about racing.

Stop left foot braking on public roads! Your left foot resting on the pedal will inevitably lead to you pressing the pedal just enough that your brake lights turn on while you accelerate/coast and people behind you wont know when you are actually braking. There is no reason for this in everyday driving.

That's an incorrect statement.

Anyways, if you're braking in the middle of a slalom, well you drove that slalom completely wrong IMO.

I right foot brake, don't have any issues with results.

hey guys, thanks for your feedback. i can tell this is about as hotly contested as religion, and obviously everyone knows that their own answer is the only correct one, so i'll find my own path. thanks.