How important is an LSD on this car?
 

The way this concept is being positioned, the production car sounds like it will have a limited slip differential... Please rate how important this feature/spec is to you in the poll.

Definitely got to have one. This will be a driver's car.

It was an option in North American markets before..why not do the same now? An open-diff definitely would be more entertaining.
:confused0068:

pj

Option, as there will be better LSD's in the aftermarket and I don't want to pay for something I know I'm going to change.

Am much as I agree with Dragon that it should be an option, other manufacturers have it standard IE Honda Civic Si, to be competitive right out the factory I think it should have one standard and not a paid extra option....honest I'm mixed opinion on this

Yeah but regardless its going to be rolled into the cost of the vehicle. Be it option or standard, you know what I mean. The Gen Coupe comes with and without the LSD, so it would be nice to have the same for the FR-S.

A good point, but the problem is that Scions come mono-spec... so unless they do a Release Series that is track-themed, it's doubtful that there would ever be a factory option for an LSD. And I am not inclined to pay for a dealer install...

What are your intentions for the car? If it's a dedicated track toy, I would agree with you on swapping the diff for an aftermarket unit. For me personally, this will be a daily driver and weekend track toy and I would prefer the vehicle to come with a factory LSD so that out of the box I just need wheels n tires and suspension... not those plus an LSD...

Part of why I think it is so important is they way they specifically mentioned that the concept puts power down through a limited slip differential. To then have a production car that comes without a feature like that, that they made a point of mentioning would cement Scion's rep as a poser brand. I don't want to see that happen.

I voted "nice to have". IMO it's not a deal breaker, especially if the suspension is setup nicely to begin with.

Here's my preference, from least desirable to most desirable:
*Detroit Locker aka spool [stupid for a DD / non-drift / non-drag car]
*Open diff
*Automatic Torque Biasing [ATB] LSD [aka Torsen & Quaife][These diffs belong on the front end of AWD and FWD cars and barely work on RWD cars]
*"viscous" LSD
*typical clutch-pack LSD
*OS Giken clutch-pack LSD

That is a good point... Look at the competitive set, and for the most part, an LSD is a reasonable expectation to come as standard equipment.

Civic Si
350/370Z
Gen Coupe (V6/GT)
Miata/MX-5
etc.

Now some people may disagree with my competitive set, but I am basing this on manufacturer's dedicated sports cars, which Toyota/Scion is pushing the FR-S as.

That is incorrect. Scion is Mono-spec in the terms of "Trim Level". Not Options. I.E....there is no SI version of a tC like there is a Civic and a Civic SI. However, options for Factory LSD was and is provided for a 2007+ Scion tC (none on the 2011 because it uses a 6spd trans and the LSD hasn't been developed for it yet). So, they can do the same for the FR-S.

I already have a track toy. The FR-S will see some track but will be my DD as well, so I can turn my tC into a 100% track toy. I am one to turn to aftermarket parts vs factory installed or optioned, so if my FR-S is bare bones then I'm more than happy. I don't want a whole bunch of stuff installed, driving the cost up. I'm into making the car my own rather than settling for picking from a option list from the dealer. Factory options are not aggressive enough for my taste.


PS....there was a limited number of Spec tC's that Scion did sell. It was a bare bones tC that didn't have alloy wheels and didn't have a sunroof either. I was pissed as I would have bought one of those instead, but it came out a later, well after I had my tC.

From what I can find out, the LSD on the previous generation tC was never offered as factory option. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, there have never been any factory options for Scion. My next guess is that it was offered as a PPO installation (Post Production Option), which would occur at the vehicle processing centres, but I couldn't find evidence of that either (not saying it didn't happen). Items that are PPO are usually referred to as "manufacturer installed", which could be misconstrued as "factory installed".

In Canada, we have different port facilities and vehicle ordering systems than the US that might not accomodate such an option, thus relegating it to be offered by the dealers.

I am with you on the aftermarket offerings, which I may look to for wheels, suspension, intake/exhaust, etc. A limited slip differential is not a straightforward install, and in some applications there are modifications required to components like the prop shaft, or driveshafts. This is something I would rather avoid especially considering the additional cost and time required to find a reputable shop to do the work, etc. A factory LSD would be ideal for me.

And, yes I know about the "Spec" tC that was offered. You were right to bring it up, as it does contradict my mono-spec statement :)

I've owned a tC since 2004. I run the TRD Factory optioned LSD (although I bought mine from another guy for cheaper), it was offered as a factory option (not for the 2005-2006) for the 2007+.

I don't trust to many shops to handle my rides, so I take it upon myself to turn the wrenches on them. My friends and myself do all the aftermarket parts installs as we have the full service manuals to the vehicles we own.

As you mentioned though, you are in Canada. I'm in the States. Unless there was a different Scion site you get directed to in Canada, if you went to the Scion website to build your own tC, you could chose to have the TRD LSD.

This is not true today of course, as I mentioned, there is no LSD for the 2011 tC....yet.

Back OT - would an LSD not be a near-requirement for those who intend the FR-S to be their DD through snowy winters?

Are you saying because some people might buy it that live in Snowy areas that Scion would think of that and make it a required item? If so, the answers no. Even a 350z could be had without an LSD.

LSDs are fairly worthless in low traction situations. Very few can actually lock two wheels together, and none of those that can are likely to be factory equipment on anything. The best most LSDs can do is suggest that the wheels should rotate at the same speed, but if there is too much difference in the grip levels of each tire there is nothing the LSD can do to help. Snow, Ice, mud, sand etc. can all send an LSD crying for it's mother.

ATB's excel in low traction situations. They're similarly worthless as open-diffs in wheel-lifted or icy conditions, however.

Clutch-packs generally burn themselves up in low-traction situations, unless it's something amazing like an OS Giken with a billion plates and full locking capability.

Like you said, however, an OEM will rarely pony up for a 100% lock clutch-pack LSD [except for huge American truck diffs] and end up slapping in a 30% lock semi-helpful LSD.

I understand where Dragon is coming from however I would like to get the LSD stock from Toyota/Subaru. Part of the reason is that

(1) I will not be modding this car right away (will be several years before that)
(2) Having it come stock means I don't need to pay for one and then find a place to install it as this will be my DD and not have to deal with no car for 2-3 days while it is being installed
(3) If it is from the factory stock, hopefully that means with Toyota's purchasing power they can get the same LSD cheaper than I would as a consumer? Not sure about that but I would assume that them buying several thousand of a particular LSD would give them a discount compared to what I could buy that same LSD. Maybe not?
(4) I really don't need "THE" top of the line LSD. Just prefer it to be a helical gear/clutch based system and not a viscous/electronic/brake based system. Other than that I personally don't care one way or another. Other people could argue the difference and benefit between different brands.

Since this will be my DD+weekend track car I just want it to be ready out the door from the factory. Don't want to have to spend the time looking for an LSD and deciding between different brands and versions, finding the best deal, finding a good shop that could do the job. I understand if someone wants the barebones because they are basically going to rip everything up and swap in a better motor or rebuild it + turbo, upgrade the suspension, get the top of the line LSD, beef up the transmission...etc. I just want a car that I can enjoy out the door and not worry about upgrading + putting more money into right away. Call me crazy but it is easier for me to budget $25,000 for a new car with a LSD rather than a $23,000 new car without an LSD + $2000 for an LSD and installation. But I know that is crazy talk since it would be the same $$ out of pocket and if anything I could get a "better" LSD aftermarket for the same price. But I just want Toyota to do it and be done with it.:party0030:

Dragon, if I'm not mistaken, weren't these LSD's a dealer installed option?

What people want is this car to come to the dealership with the LSD already installed and part of the MSRP. I've looked up Scions in the past, and can only remember seeing a LSD as an option you install after purchase. And the price is extraordinarily high for being an LSD. One for the xD was $2200...I could purchase a kaaz aftermarket and have it installed at a shop for cheaper than that. Or I could just buy it for ~$900 and install it myself.

And no, on regular cars the LSD alone won't bump up the MSRP by $2200.

In either case I'm not holding my breath on this car coming with the LSD from the factory. Something tells me they know a lot of people will want LSD with this car, and will (Begrudgingly) purchase it as a dealer installed option for a very crazy price.

Of course, if this is the scenario, I won't be purchasing a LSD from the dealership. As its been stated, you can get a better quality LSD from the aftermarket, for much cheaper.

I've never purchase a Scion Before and I did at one point almost purchased a TC, But I decided to wait a bit longer and got a Si instead. Now what are these dealer installed options which will bump the prize on Scion?

I remember when I was going to purchase the TC back in 04 they had two on the lot and they tried to get me to purchase the more expensive of the two, which made no sense to me at first. Then I found out it had a supercharger inside while the other one didn't. I didn't get the TC because the other one that was affordable to me at the time was a Automatic... that's 4 speed....the manual one was more expensive. ;/

Can they do that? just put stuff in there you don't want and try to sell it to you? In terms of the FR-S will I be able to just go to a Toyota dealer with a Scion section. And say I want to buy a completely stock FRS. Or will most likely they'll put stuff in there already to bump price.

urgh... English is my second language... so I hope this makes sense.

Yeah, that's why I vote for it to be an option. I don't want it rolled into my MSRP. As mentioned above, I'd rather pay $23k and take $1500-2000 and buy a better LSD rather than paying $25k for the car with a factory component. Factory components never stand up to the abuse people like me want to dish out. My Touring Ed. 350z had an LSD (viscous), if I would have thought about it, I would have just got a base and put in an aftermarket one.





What I'm trying to avoid. I think that mark-up would just translate into the cost of the car instead of a direct hit on your wallet adding it in.


But how would any of us know that? You would have to call up say...Honda...and ask them how much the Civic Si would cost if it didn't have an LSD from the factory.


That's what it's all about. Kinda what Scion is about too...customization and making it your own.






This is my second tC. My first one had some safety options on it like side curtain airbags, that of course made the car more expensive. That tC ended up getting totaled, so we started over and got a different color, axed the stuff we didn't want that came on the other one as options (like the side airbags) and had Scion get it shipped here in the configuration I asked for. So, if you find one on the lot with added stuff on it for a higher price, you are not forced to buy that one. Just tell them what you want on it if anything and have them order the car sent to your local dealer.

Of course you can't remove "standard" equipment for the sake of trying to cut the price of the car.

+1
actually on a cobalt SS the LSD option was only 500 extra, so i dont think it will raise the price that much higher...

Common sense? Just look at the Z....

The sport package increases the MSRP by $3000 and comes with much more than just "LSD", including larger brakes and wheels (19 over the stock 18's), syncro-rev match system, a body aero styling.

Basically they can package that stuff into one heap and make the package, as a whole, cost less than the individual components because they can sell Sport Package Z's on a high enough level to discount it all. You know, buy in bulk and save money, etc.

IF, and if, the FR-S came standard with a LSD, it would lower the cost to Toyota/Scion of supplying said LSD, and it would be reflected in the MSRP. It wouldn't be a $2200 increase. So say instead if they could start at $23k with an open diff, instead, EVERY FR-S had a LSD standard, you'd probably see $23,700. Example just for showing my point....numbers obviously aren't backed by any facts, other than parts binning on that level of production would lower the cost of supplying it.

I honestly believe any sports car should come standard nowadays with LSD, just like you'd be totally mind numbingly surprised if they came with drum rears, or a live rear axle (lookin' at you Mustang), or had an AT only option (lookin' at you GT-R).

For me it would a convenience factor...instead of immediately shelving out another $1000 to get a LSD put on the car after driving off the lot, I could put changing out the LSD on the backburner and start focusing on other things to upgrade, and eventually come back to it when I'm ready. Even if the factory LSD's don't perform as well as the aftermarket, its still better than open.

So any idea how an aftermarket installed LSD might affect the warranty? I know the dealership has to prove that your installed part caused the problem/defect/issue, but is that even worth worrying about?

...and that's the other issue, installing performance parts without voiding the drivetrain warranty.

A question obviously answered best by Dragon.

True that, but for $3k dollars more, I would only want the performance stuff as I'm not into the other stuff that you get. So, performance wise, $3k is a good hike to me for what you get. So, rev-match is all you really got for $3k more. The aero package isn't that aggressive to make a drastic difference in lap times. 19's are bigger than 18's and weigh more. Brakes are larger, but they make braking systems better than factory still.

So, in the end you still could get away with a better performing car for that $3k or just a tad over it, but the difference in performance will be greater over the normal Z.

It kinda goes along with the Turbo option or no turbo option. Granted the motors are the same, going the N/A + aftermarket boost > factory boost and will either be cheaper or cost the same.

Keep in mind though, I'm not saying they shouldn't be equipped with LSD from the factory. I'm saying they should give us one with an open diff for cheaper too. If it's just like $400 buck difference then I would opt for the LSD from the factory. But if we are talking $1000-3k then I'll get an open diff and put my own in when they become available.

hope its an option, I'll get it anyways then after the warranties are done KAAZ 2way all the way, after that I can sell my OEM to someone who dont have it then its a win win for both.

Of course they have to prove your new part installed is what caused the issue. I know a lot of people are concerned with warranty, and if you are then of course this isn't the route for you.

For me and speaking for me, I look at it this way. Cars are developed and engineered these days to last 100+k miles. So, at no given time should any component on your car fail before that. So, I am going to enjoy my car while it's "Young" sorta speak then waiting till warranty is up (5 years or 100k miles) when there is wear and tear already on the car and then begin to mod on a worn out component/chassis.

As a side note, I hate stealership warranty service. Their job is to protect their pockets first and then fix yours second. This is what caused me to learn the ins and outs of my vehicle. 1) keeps other peoples hands off my ride and 2) saves me on labor....the part that cost the most.

Wasn't it the Evo that had the ECU that told the dealer how you drove the car or was it the S2k? So, an aggressive driver goes in for warranty in his bone stock car because there is an engine problem and what do you know...dealer says it's going to cost you X amount of dollars because you were redlining the car to much, we read it off your ECU. :bonk:

Other stories like one of the shop guys wrecking your car because he had to test drive it after a tie rod install to make sure no noise...stuff like that. I would much rather pay a bonified performance shop dollars to make my car better than get warranty service for free to replace or fixed stock components due to breaking.

Use to drift my 350z. The stock clutch is weak and it started to slip after a short period of time. So, took it to a Nissan performance shop and dropped in a Stage 2 clutch w/light flywheel. Dealers to my knowledge also don't install anything but OEM equipment. Another reason why I don't visit the dealer. I'll use my warranty for stupid mundane stuff, never for performance parts or critical gear.

The best comparison is the mazda miata's sport package, it's something like 1200 and only includes the lsd, bilsteins and springs. Furthermore brand new the lsd in the package costs almost 800 (buying aftermarket) without installation. The crappy thing mazda does is if you want the car with an lsd and bilsteins you have to buy up one trim level for it to be an option, I don't want to see scion trying to pull the same trick.

It should be offered as an option for performance trims only. LSDs are great, but with todays technology we can get better handling characteristics in real life scenarios without the use of a limited slip. An Open diff with a torque vectoring ABS gives better handling without the use of a limited slip, But for those who want their FR-S track ready using both a ABS and LSD that work in tandem will get great traction results in the course.

In a motor sports event, lets say you want to "drift" but the ABSxLSD is working against you giving unwanted power deliver habits, I am already thinking that Toyota has already thought of this as they had added a ABS off button in the MK1 FT86. Allowing you to use the full locking capabilities of the rear diff without the wanted traction given from ABS.

There are no trim options with Scion.

Second part: Or....OR.....just have ABS do its job and have a mechanical LSD for the traction part...save's a lot of headaches. Funny how sometimes people with technology overcomplicate stuff, when technology is supposed to make things easier.

Can't forget this is supposed to be a driver's car. Fancying it up with silly computer doo-dads kind of defeats that purpose. And for heaven's sake NO on the ABS derived "LSD".

I keep forgetting its going to be sold as a Scion, but regardless our current trend in technology is to develop driver cars for the current market. Not go back to the stonage aka good ol days where everything was just mechanical. I have no quams in technology that helps aid the driver, as long it still keeps us connected. The GTR even with its technology and various driver aids still keeps the driver connected especially in R mode. In the tuner market (not talking about low income drivers like most people on forums) we always want better performance and/or comfort. Iv seen ABS retrofits, launch controls, EDFC combined with air ride.

AKA todays drivers car is different from the 80s drivers car.

Several professional drivers in Japan have stated that the mostly computer driven GT-R makes them feel disconnected from the car, not more connected.

A driver's car is a driver's car, btw, there's no gray area. Either the driver is in complete control, or the car aids the driver, taking away the status of "driver's car". An entry-level sports car with a small pricetag shouldn't be expected to have advanced technology in it anyways. Especially when it IS being heralded in as a 'drivers car'. Those aids only serve to up the price, and honestly, I don't want this car being expensive so people can boast about their syncro-rev match, or brake assisted differential, and space-time breather valve that opens portals to new worlds and different dimensions.

TL;DR: keep it simple, keep it affordable.

Dragon, I think you probably represent <5% of people out there who will buy this car. Most people will just leave it stock and use it as a DD. Another group will add a body kit, new rims, lower the car, maybe do an exhaust...etc. Then comes that group that wants to throw in an engine swap or rebuild the motor with a turbo. That sounds more like you. I personally don't want to do much with it because I don't want to deal with parts breaking and the unreliability of of some aftermarket performance parts on my daily driver. If I had a second car or enough $$$ to blow then sure I could care less. But if I had enough $$$ to care less I wouldn't be looking at a Toyota/Scion. So in a sense I care about the warranty because this car would be more than just a fun toy to take out on the weekend. It will get me to work, go to the grocery store, go out to eat...etc. I think you just have the disease called "upgradeitis" which is really cool and I wish I had money to support that myself. :happy0180: But in the end if I could get something like an LSD or turbo installed at the factory with a warranty for said part at a decent price, I would be all over that.

on one hand i totally agree with you on the definition of a drivers car. on the other hand, the evo x totally feels like a drivers car. i think its because the yaw control lets you feel like you are in control with a little more slp angle out back but i really dont know

If it doesn't come standard, I'm not sure id be inclined to purchase it.

it would be nice to see a torsen or something. viscous would just be one more thing to maintain and probably would wear to the point its not effective...so torsen or nothing is fine with me

This car NEEDS to be track ready. After all the talk, they need to walk the walk. The 86 needs LSD, sport tuned suspension and a 6 speed in the base model. I know I'm a bit optimistic but thats how I see it. The options can provide better parts.

*without increasing the base cost of the car that would take it out of the affordable entry-level slot and more into the mid-range (upper 20k).

I totally agree then.

Affordable=???? Under $25k? Under $23k? And at what point do we want it to be "economical" at the cost of equipment/performance? Weaker transmission to get the cost down? crappier stock tires/wheels for cheaper price?

I realize the list he gave really wouldn't push the envelope too bad (we already know its coming 6 speed standard), but yes, they need to weigh what comes standard with keeping the target MSRP low, and I would say definitely under $25k, $23k would be a good high point imo.

:iono:

I don't know what to say to you guys who don't wrench on your cars. Changing out the springs/struts is easy mode (Especially on a car thats NOT old with stubborn bolts), same with upgrading brakes via pads and rotors, or putting on a sportier exhaust, which is about as bolt on as it gets.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for this, LOVE, for it to come standard with a sport tuned suspension, sport exhaust, LSD, Strut-bracers (like the rolla XRS did), and the likes all standard. But not at upping the cost to where purchasing it becomes a serious financial decision. As long as its affordable, light weight, and RWD, its already sold in my book.

Hmm...affordable...y'know, its a good discussion about what is affordable. Lets say the average serious buyer has a yearly income of ~$30k after taxes (younger market), or $2500 a month. If he can take 20% of his yearly income, $6000, and put it as a down payment, and the car costs $25k, you have a loan of $19k. Speculating average credit for a ~8% interest rate, his payments are ~$390, or almost 16% of his monthly income. From a -financial- pov, that's really at the mark you want your monthly payment on a car to be. Roughly 15%.

But the term affordable is totally subjective based on each individual buyers own financial situation. For me, $25k is really all I'm willing to pay atm until I can get a better job.

Its of course easier, and more objective, to base 'affordability' off of other cars in the market and comparing their stats/features to the car you're wanting to buy.