Subaru BRZ With e85 Flex Fuel Kit Not Starting In Cold
 

Today after some snow and it being 32 degrees outside, my Subaru BRZ is refusing to start. It's an automatic. It has the moto-east flex fuel kit installed and tune. I tried starting the ignition over 10 times, but it's just not starting.

Is this typical for cars with e85 and this flex fuel kit?

I e-mailed Moto East and I'm waiting for a response.

Will they send me an updated tune, or what do I have to do to get my car to start? Should I put some regular gasoline in it or something?

The ethanol content is above 80. Any ideas?

Here is a video of it,
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pfJuKF_t7s"]Subaru BRZ E85 Cold Start Problem With Ignition Not Starting After Snow - YouTube[/ame]

Lots of info on this forum about it such as;

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84644

People add regular gasoline to fix the problem, should be OK for you as you have flex fuel

Winter blend E85 is typically ~E60 tops from what I've seen. Curious how you have >E80 when it's 32 degrees out!

thats what i figured, thx. ill try adding regular gasoline tomorrow.

well yesterday i went and filled my tank completely with e85 and that's what it went to after i did so. Omega Fuels, in Southampton PA. Maybe they had more ethanol in it.

omega fuels has the best blend of e85 around our area. I'm from philly too, but I usually fill up at the scam shell station near Chinatown just for the convenience.

I messaged Omega Fuels on Facebook and they apologized to me. They said their winter blend is not suppose to be above 80, and mine went to 88. My tank was on empty when I filled it all up, so 99% of the fuel came from their pump. Seems like I got too much ethanol.

Very strange.

In Indiana we have high blends as well. I filled up yesterday with E77.

update
 

Today i went and filled my tank with 6 gallons of regular gasoline (87 octane). The rest of my tank has e85, so it's 50% regular gas and 50% e85. Omega Fuels recommended me to dillute the e85 with regular gasoline and that's exactly what I did.

It still doesn't start.

I messaged Moto-East because it's their flex fuel kit and tune, and I'm waiting for a response. At this point I have no idea what to do. My car still doesn't start.

I opened the engine bay and saw the Zeitronix box flashing yellow. Does anyone know if this is normal , or is something wrong with the moto east flex fuel it, or possibly the tune? I have no clue what the problem is now. This is really weird.

Also the ethanol content anylyzer only went down from e88 to 83. So i'm not sure how accurate that is since half of my engine is regular gas. That seems to be way off. Shouldnt it be way below 80 by now? Strange.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6UjiWkvzvM"]March 11, 2017 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-QgdKYLysw"]March 11, 2017 - YouTube[/ame]

Best way is to drain all ethanol via priming fuel pump and fill the tank with gasoline and give it a try

You did fill the tank with 93, but the fuel that is in the lines is probably still pure ethanol. You could carefully disconnect the fuel lines and prime the pump a bunch to drain the lines. Hmm.

Betting it's flooded now and the plugs are soaked.

OR, @morswestford , do it the old fashioned way ....... spray diethyl ether into the intake, which should allow the engine to start and run, to pull the ethanol through the lines to get to the gas mix.

CAUTION: Don't be looking at the intake real close if the engine backfires ...... :eyebulge:


Bubba in for humfrz

interesting idea, how do i easily open the air intake to spray that?

Can you push the car into a garage or something to get it warm? That's probably the easiest solution :D

Just crack open the air cleaner cover and spray it into the air cleaner box ..... it won't hurt to hit the air filter itself.

That was a common way we used to get diesel trucks started in cold weather.

;)


humfrz

can you show a picture of exactly what it looks like? sorry never did this before.

afraid not

Did you by chance when talking to the gas station find out if they had tested the gas to verify what your seeing? Reason I ask is it might not be that its super high in ethanol it could just have water in the fuel.


Edit: For some what of a reference I have run e85 late into the fall here in Minnesota and she started fine on sub 32 deg days. Also completely different car but I ran e85 year round in my 02 wrx and it started at -20

What I mean by the air cleaner box is the plastic box near the front of the engine compartment on the drivers side that houses the air filter (assuming you have the OEM intake system).

There are two snaps at the top, just unsnap them like you were going to change the air filter. When you get the two sections of the box apart far enough to see in there, simply spray some of the starter fluid down into the air cleaner box.

Just leave the box partially open and crank the engine over. It should start and run off the ether for a spell. If it starts and runs, then button up the box.

If it starts and runs but then sputters out, give it another shot. Repeat until you run out of starter fluid or patience.

If the engine doesn't continue to run after that ........ just go with plan "B".

PS - the remaining starter fluid is great for starting motorcycles, lawn mowers and the like.

Reminds me of the time back-in-the-day, in Connecticut, one warm, Saturday morning, I heard the sound of many attempts from trying to start a lawn mower.

It was this neighbor girl, dressed in short shorts and halter top, cranking on her lawn mower. humfrz to the rescue with his can of starter fluid. The neighbor girl was a looker for sure, especially with the beads of perspiration trickling down between her breasts.

Well, after several shots and pulls, that mower wouldn't start ....... so, I checked the gas tank ....... bone dry!

The moral of that story is ...... :slap: ...... pay attention to what you are doing!


humfrz

I can't help read this story and imagine you in your house, peering out your window with the can of starter fluid already in hand. :lol:

EDIT: I do agree with the concept of start fluid though. You just need to get the cylinder/block warm enough to vaporize the cold E85 as it enters the engine. That may be more challenging than we think... but having it fired up for a few seconds should help.

NO, NO, NO, NO
Give it ONE shot. If it starts great if it doesn't or quits don't keep spraying. Ether will strip the oil off the cylinders in a hurry if it isn't fully burnet up. Could get away with it in the sloppy old engines but could cause some serious issues on these. Also not sure what it would do to the MAF sensor on these cars.

Damnit humfrz, you left me flaccid at the end.

i do not have the OEM air intake, i have a jackson racing supercharger installed, and i have their air cooler system. i didn't install it and im not sure if i want to mess with it.

today it's above freezing and i still can't start my car. i may have to tow my car to a shop to figure this out. i can't believe this. all this trouble just because i have e85 in my car and it's not even that cold out.

Well, OK, that's even easier.

If your kit is like the one in the picture, just spray the starter fluid on the that dry cylindrical air cleaner ...... or the opening wherever the engine is getting it's air from. Spray for about 2 seconds for starters, then up the dose if necessary.

This shouldn't be all that hard. Maybe you should ask a friend to help you .... ;)


humfrz

Well, now, morswestford, ...... this engine was designed to run NA, burning gasoline .......:popcorn:

Sorry ...... must be my nap time ....... OMG daylight savings time change ....... it's PAST my nap time ....... :eyebulge:


ZZZZZZZZ

Try a can of heet as I suggested. Even if its not the problem its cheap and does not damage anything even if water in the gas isnt the problem

yes it it exactly like that. il try it, ill spray a for a few seconds on it and hope it works.

If the engine fires and then dies, you may have a friend give it a shot while you are turning it over.

Keep us posted.


humfrz

You may have a point. I didn't literally mean to empty the can into the intake .... ;)

As far as the MAF ...... maybe it will just give it a good cleaning ...... :iono:

(stupid new engines)



humfrz

Sorry about that ....... there was no "rest of the story". Her husband had just set up his medical practice in the small town we lived in and I went to him as a family physician.

Now, one does NOT want to be messen around with a neighbor girl, that her husband is giving you shots and pills ....... :confused0068:


humfrz

i talked with my mechanic yesterday about it and he recommended i don't do that because it could potentially damage the air cleaner. he thinks it could be the injectors or the flex fuel sensor. i may have to tow it to the shop.

Well, OK.

I fail to understand how ether is going to damage the air cleaner ...... but there is an outside chance that it could damage the MAF sensor. However, that compound is so volatile, it doesn't stay anywhere long.

Best you follow the advice of your mechanic.

I hope you get it running soon. Keep us posted.


humfrz

(mumble-mumble-mumble .... when you mess with the engine, it can mess with you)

It might take a few miles of driving before the Ethanol analyzer shows the correct %.

I've started my 75% Ethanol BRZ in 42-degree weather once (on the original E85 tune that didn't account for cold starts):
1) I cranked the car 10 times like you, gave up, went inside
2) Came back out 10 minutes later, did several more cranks (didn''t step on the gas pedal this time)
3) By now I figured the engine was flooded, so I waited ~30 minutes, came back out, turned the ignition to ON... waited for 2 minutes, then cranked the engine. It almost fired up, I step on the gas a bit, then cranked it again a few more times before it finally fired up.

The joy of using corn juice..

My honest feeling here OP: If you're going to tow it to a mechanic... why not just try to get it into a warm garage first? or something? You probably just need to get it fired up in a warm place, burn off some of the ethanol in the lines, and get to a more stable ethanol mixture so that things will start in the cold winter.

Or maybe there's a warm day coming up where you live, this week?

E88 is just a high percentage of ethanol... not that strange that it won't start in really cold weather. If you can get it started and driving for a bit you can burn it down to E55 or whatever mixture you end up with given the 93 you added.

I don't have a warm garage to take it to unless it's the mechanics shop.

There is no warm weather coming to Philly this week. The wind chill right now is like 10 degrees.

Anyways Omega Fuels, the station i got the e85 from suggested I use a siphon pump and siphon out a few gallons of gas. Then put in injector cleaner in the tank. And see if that helps or not. he also mentioned the problem may be the flex fuel sensor itself.

I'm going to try that today. Maybe the injectors are the issue. Who knows. if the injector cleaner doesn't do anything, then ill just tow it to a shop for further investigation.

did motoeast reply to you? did you get your car started yet? I'm looking to get flex fuel and wondering if they have good customer service

Just make sure you use a E85-friendly injector cleaner. I'm no expert, and I've never used it with E85.. but others have said that regular injector cleaner and E85 might not mix well.

And unless that gas station attendant is an E85 tuner, I'd take his advice with a grain of salt.... and maybe some butter. But that's just me.

Started my BRZ with moto-east flex fuel kit and tune on E77 today at 28degrees. Fired up first time, no struggle.