New Throttle body is it worth the money?
 

So im new to the forums so i hope im posting in the right category.

i've bin modding my frs with bolt-ons starting from the intake and working my way down the exhaust. I have came across thread about the cusco throttle body and read the $1k is not worth it at all for the product which i fully agree.

BUT, the other day i came across the grams 72mm throttle body for 400$ and it apparently gives just below a 50% increase of airflow.

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/gram...l#.WBLSWODx7IV

YAY or NAY?
i'd like to hear your opinions about it before i regret buying it ahaha. Thnx

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooo.

Not seen any dyno results that indicate significant gains on NA or boosted cars with bigger throttle bodies.

The throttle body may be capable of flowing more air but the engine , intake and exhaust would need to all flow better to take advantage of the throttle body flow.

People running 15 psi or more boost on stock throttle body.

On an NA car the things that will get you most of the gains for least outlay are tune, catless header, E85 fuel and a drop in filter in stock intake. After that you will spend heaps for little more on an NA car, save your $$$$ for fi or another car after those mods.

see Basic Bolt on Mods Guide link below

what he said... except I would say just core the stock header for best bang for buck outcome. Anyone dropping big bucks on a header is wasting money, but that's just my opinion.

So it seems like a big focus in this thread is bang for your buck performance wise, but I really get a kick out of the sounds too. The Dinan throttle bodies on my dads e46 sound amazing and I'm wondering if the same would be expected for an 86?

Anyone dropping big bucks on a S#it header is wasting money, but that's just my opinion.

There, i fixed it for you. There are couple of headers out there that outperformed the stock header by miles. If your opinion would have been somewhat true, we would see no gains whatsoever from changing the header on NA or even FI (SC in particular). Your statement however is very very true if you are talking about intakes where people drop serious coin on something that will make fa difference when compared to a drop in filter.

:cheers:

I think a guy like me, who owns a welder, can weld in a straight pipe after decoring the cat for under ten bucks. Compare that to a header that is $500-1500, and the cost to hp gain is in my favor.

I guess all aftermarket industry, race teams got it all wrong man! Damn, so it's just cat Cs no cat these days! And save money. Cheers man

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IIRC someone had there car dyno'd with the bigger tb and picked up around 10-12whp on the top end. They also were boosted (C38 blower I think) with header, full exhaust running e70. 320whp seems to stick out in my head.

This modification is quite popular in Japan among specific tuners (e.g. ASM). It's not only about top end gains, but most important about torque gains in the low-mid rpm range. In Western countries it is not very common. I guess the cost will be quite high, because tuner/manufacturer will need to order a new throttle body from the factory. The OEM throttle body is expensive. Additionally, it requires boring the part which is not an easy task. Overall, it is a modification with a high cost and a potential of very low profits ...

If you've already done FI and full exhaust and intake and flex fuel and tune and everything else short of modifying engine internals, and you know the throttle body is actually restricting your airflow, then yes. At that point, it becomes beneficial. It's already larger than the engine needs, so you have a lot of modifying to do before you max it out.

This^


There is no magic bolt on that does miracles all on it's own. Each part has to be considered in relation to the whole and not looked at as, this part = this gain. Not impossible to think that a larger TB without supporting parts and a tune could actually decrease performance.
Reading manufacture's claims of "this part will do this for you" can be a bit of a trap so the OP did the right thing in researching.

Personally, I asked a respectable manufacturer and they told me that a bigger throttle body works even with everything else stock. Additionally, it will give better gains with a tune (i.e., MAF re-program) and even better gains with a free-flow exhaust. All the previous changes are additive and help each other.

In fact, the story behind the Gazoo racing intake started when some shops played with independent throttle bodies. The results were quite successful that Toyota started to engineer them, including additional changes on the rest of the intake and multiple intake runners.

http://i65.tinypic.com/a5bzeo.jpg


I guess cost limitations and emission standards don't let the manufacturer to include these changes in the base car.

Were they talking about cars in general, or about these cars specifically? Some cars come with small (for engine size) TB's and can make huge gains. Our TB's are actually pretty huge for a 2L engine, and are bigger than what lots of people upgrade to on other 2L engines. A bigger TB might *feel* faster at part throttle because for 15* of throttle opening lets in more air, but that doesn't mean it's going to make a single hp more at WOT.

That looks like dual runners, not ITB's... the idea with dual runners (or variable runner length) is to run longer runners at low RPM to help power in that range and then the shorter runners at high RPM for more power.

Hardly a new idea, engines back as far as the early 90's (or maybe earlier) had manifolds like that.

No

This is marketing at its finest. Sure, the throttle body maybe able flow more air but it doesn't mean the engine will be able to make use of the increase. As others have said the throttle body is not the limiting factor here (or over there).

We did a Dyno Testing for the Grams TB on a supercharged FR-S and a couple N/A's

And we can confirm that YES it did actually make some power. For the price YES, it is worth it.

before install the car made 303HP 238ft-lb TQ
after install the car made 307HP 238ft-lb TQ
after install with a tune up the car made 314-315 HP and 248ft-lb TQ

^High Boost Pulley @ 11psi and e70

I would hope no one expects 10HP gains for $100 they spend (but then again this is 2016 now:bonk:) However, at $400 bucks (cheaper from us if you ask nicely ;) ) this throttle body will benefit the boosted demographic. We are also thinking about adding it to our Black Friday sale for extra savings!


On a Turbo FR-S we were not able to compare with/without the TB, due to time restrictions on the dyno. However, he did state that he was able to spool faster (take that and do with it what you want). He got about 320 on the dyno w/the TB on the small Greddy Turbo at 10psi.

Another "cool factor" to it is the BOV got louder..as expected. but thats just a cool factor.

Here is our write up on this
http://blog.86speed.com/tested-and-p...throttle-body/

Stay Tuned as I will be doing another write up for the N/A population soon once that customer brings his dyno sheets in!

Anyone want to test and dyno this on an N/A application.

PM us your mods list

I would be willing to test it, but I haven't bought this waiting to see N/A results to be honest, as spending 350+ for unknown gains (or loses) N/A isn't really appealing.

So if I install the Grams TB, plus the Crawford Power Blocks, PLUS one of those Vortex TURBONATORs, I should see HUGE gains, right?

https://68.media.tumblr.com/37b05aae...zwcio1_500.gif

I'd be willing to dyno mine with the Grams 72mm Throttle Body. I have a tune with a injen intake and HKS EL headers. I have a HKS front pipe and a greddy exhaust. I'm on e85 as well. Here soon I'll be doing the HKS cams and stroker kit. This car is going to be staying NA. I find it a fun challenge to get power out of this car in its NA form.

Perhaps consider this:
https://moneyshiftracing.com/store/i...roker-kit.html
I think this was put together by Celek (NA fanatic on this forum), and he was going to use high lift piper cams with valve relief for the pistons?


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Updates ?

@86SPEED I recently purchased the Skunk2 Powerbox and the Grams Throttle Body, and had it dyno'd! Sadly, I had it dyno'd after the throttle body was on, so I don't have a baseline before the dyno. :(

But here's the dyno chart anyway!
https://i.imgur.com/xWB0yl6.jpg

Without a tune, the powerband just died at 6k. The other guy I was with, who only had a K&N drop in, made 170 whp on the same dyno. With the charts overlaid, I had him by ~5 whp throughout the entire band, until 6k. His power kept going, and mine just sunk. I imagine with a tune, this thing would rock.

The overlaid chart shows the throttle body kicking in the torque WAY earlier than anybody else though, which helps with the throttle response feeling.

It looks that you need a tune. You 're using also a non-stock intake airbox and you might need to adjust also the MAF readings.

Yeah. We were comparing all of our charts in the end, and it was obvious I needed one. I have an ACE header, FP, and catback showing up tomorrow, so I'll end up getting a tune within the next couple weeks from a local tuner.

Just to let you know, it won't be easy to tune the larger throttle body. If the tuner is experienced, then I guess he'll know what to do.

I had the same issue like you with another throttle body brand and the Stage 1 OFT tune. At that time I had just a drop-in air filter and the bigger throttle body. The car was breathless after 6k. The strange thing was that I didn't have this issue with the factory tune. I did a check by testing the two tunes in same road, same day, same conditions. So, it looks that some tunes are more sensitive with this change than others. I guess, it depends also how much you go larger. Currently, I am using a (canned) tune from another shop and I don't have this issue.

Thanks for the insight! Our local tuner is pretty experienced, and has actually tuned the exact throttle body before on another club member's vehicle. However, that member's 86 is twin turbo'd, so it might be a little different on an NA application. He's always up for a challenge though! I'll make a post about it once it happens.

Maybe the trottle body moved the power band, like crawford intake spacers? Without dyno is hard to say, thanks for your report

I would love to see what kind of gains my car would have with one of these........Was thinking of getting the FBM intake runners AND the TB.

Here's a post from the UK Forum:

This is an old post and the dyno was done using a car with turbo. The dyno kodename posted above is related to a NA car. Keep in mind that the Grams tb doesn't have a tapered entrance and the amount of air in high RPMs is smaller. So, the small loss in power makes sense. The oem tb is tapered:


http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/prod...gthrottle4.jpg