Moto East / Deatschwerks Drop-in Surge Tank - tech & discussion
 

Hey folks. We have been working with some track day folks over the years running e85, and one thing that has stuck was that on left handers you run the stock fuel bucket dry really quick when the fuel demands are high. One option is to do a full fuel cell setup, another is to add a complex system using return lines and custom bucket. We're shooting to take care of this with an elegant solution where we utilize a deatschwerks pump (or dual pump for 400+ whp), a custom battery/surge tank bracket, that you can then use with a PC680 or smaller battery. Completely plug and play fuel lines in this solution, and much much cheaper than a fuel cell.

http://www.moto-east.com/main/wp-con...3591287770.jpg

This is a preview of the final placement. We wanted to get this up on the forums so that folks can see what we have brewing and also share any input as we finalize the design and parts list.

A few points:

• Mounts into the factory battery location
• Uses Deatschwerks surge tank and pumps
• Saves about 14 lbs when paired with a PC680 and full (may have to double check this)
• CNC cut plates, then welded as a tray with separate compartments for the battery/tank
• Can be the black stainless reinforced braided hose like our flex fuel kits, or full stainless hose
• Uses -6 AN fittings that plug into the factory lines
• Fully integrates into our flex fuel kit
• Can be provisioned for a fuel pressure sender if wanted

The -6 lines should support 700 hp no problem, and with a good fuel pump in the stock tank this should prevent fuel starvation under all conditions except maybe top speed runs past 200 MPH. :thumbup:

No firm release date yet, but we may do pre-order if folks are interested so that we can allocate our resources appropriately.

Can trays for alternate batteries be made? Particularly, the large form factor Shorai.

Unfortunately not, and it really will work best with the PC680 since it relies on a solid mount to keep the assembly bolted down tightly.

Also, after a shorai almost burned our miata down to the ground, I wouldn't recommend that battery.

EDIT: I should add though, you could in theory cut and weld on a longer plate on the battery side to fit a slightly larger battery. The key here would be that the battery is not loose in the box. If we did that we'd need the battery sent here then make the box around it.

Clever solution, I like it.

Really glad you put this in the bay. I have no need for this (yet?) but it's still badass :)

I'm pretty interested, starvation has been an issue for me. Can't wait for final released product!

Does that battery have enough CCA for those of us who use these cars as DD in cold weather?

In OK, we typically have a month of so temps around or below freezing in the morning.

Love the design. Would the fuel pumps run in series then?

Options are as follows: drop in fuel pumps (250il) or use the pickup tube with a fitting and then mount an external auxiliary pump. These are universal mount and you can tie it to the strut tower or fire wall.

I've used the 680 on i4 engines for years and no issues, but don't expect it to crank nearly as long as a full size battery. You can use it as a daily, the bigger issue is for a car that sits since it will be quicker to discharge. So keep it on a battery tender or actually drive the car and you'll be fine.

Thanks!

I need to pickup the bat phone and ask @GSpeed what they think of this ;)

They have done some fuel pressure measurements and I think they are one of the few who collected data on the issue of fuel starvation.

I am definitely interested as I am suspecting fuel starvation at the track could lead to serious reliability problems in the long run.
@moto-mike, if you can give some more background on the consequences of fuel starvation I bet that will help your product ;)

Only fix (short of fuel cell/recirc) for fuel starvation has been to run with a full tank, which is what all of us have done. Full tanks are heavy, and at 350+ whp you can suck 1/3 down in just one track session.

To hit 350+ whp you will need FI. Fuel starving with FI is a very, very bad thing on a hot engine. My old car was the 335 equipped BRZ and we starved badly on even moderate length left handers after 10-15 minutes from a full tank. Our current shop car (Phil's) runs over 450 whp at the track (570 in road mode....) and you can imagine that runs through fuel stupidly quick if there are straights.

Another reason this issue really stinks is when countersteering in a slide. Having power suddenly drop out will cause a flick back to the other direction and possibly put you in a wall.

Looks very good! :thumbup:

@moto-mike, what is the total weight of the surge tank(full) with the battery?


-Stefan

Does this make the fuel system return style?

I ran a pc680 on a 2.0L I4 for years. Note that I live in Nova Scotia, it's not Siberia, but it does get cold. I never had an issue, even leaving my car for a month while I went to sea. The only caveat to that, is I didn't run it with conventional oil, always synthetic, but I doubt you'd be running dino oil so that likely doesn't make a difference.

Surge tanks are a well proven solution to fuel starvation issues. We've run them on lots of cars before. They're a great idea if your rule set allows it. :D

About rule set... Can anybody chime in about NASA and SCCA rules ?
Does this count as a fuel cell ? any points need to be taken for this modification ?

Surge tank shouldn't be classified as a fuel cell. Totally different purposes and the factory tank is retained. But it is up to the local folks who make these calls to address this issue, and certainly check with whichever organization the car is run.

Curious on the price range.

In for preorder. I have track days this month and August.. having noticeable starvation in turns. Send me one PLS

Been holding off on a LW battery. This gives me a good reason to justify it haha.

Whats the power to pump solution? Harness included and PnP?

TIA
Sam

I ran one for a while when I had an ESC on my car. Started right up even in near 0F temps.

Any updates on this? Very interested.

Yup, sure are soon. We are adding some additional features currently, should have a complete parts list later this week, and hopefully pricing next week!

It will be over $1000 from the rough number crunching we're doing now. But understand just the parts involved are quite expensive, including the tank and pump(s)...then the fittings and more.

As long as it includes everything for an easy bolt on set up, that's fine by me.

This has definitely peaked my interest....

update please. PP ready :D

How did the track day testing go? bump for an update.

We had to make some last minute design changes.

Here's what it looks like now with the FPR. I'm happy with this layout and this is what the production unit will be. Note the neat wiring job. It will plug right into the rear o2 sensor slot (yes it can share wiring with flex fuel kits) for relay power, then the relay gets its power from the battery direct.

We should have pricing ready this week, one of the guys is measuring everything up so we can build the sku list and production cost into it.

https://www.facebook.com/motoeast/vi...3460595701519/

Ok, we put together the parts list and have our pricing set. It is a bit higher than we initially were hoping for, but this is the only way to keep quality components in the kit. Note that we are also including an FPR with a return style, which will help keep pressure in check and will allow you to have a rising rate vs factory fixed. We are doing a pre-order which is now LIVE! August delivery, when exactly will depend on how many we get. For those of you counting pennies, if you were to put the build list together and buy the parts at Summit, you'd be paying pretty much the cost of our assembled kit and you wouldn't have the mounting bracket.

http://www.moto-east.com/store/moto-...tank-ft86.html

http://www.moto-east.com/store/media.../surgetank.jpg

Looks like a pretty fair price for what you're getting. We've made similar setups for other platforms that cost around there, or more, depending on how crazy they get.

Nice work!

You guys going to have any install instructions posted soon?

Not yet, that will take it a bit of time. But what I can tell you is that it is not much more complicated than the flex fuel kit, just a couple extra lines. Wiring is mostly plug and play and provided. It mounts where the factory battery is located and the FPR to the intake manifold.

Now we just need a bundle with the surge tank and flex fuel kit.

Are you flex fuel shopping :)

I use to run E85 until I couldn't get below 7/8 of a tank on track without fuel starving and had to go back to gas. If I am going to make the switch back I prefer to do it in combination with a header, flex fuel and ecutek tunes vs OFT so I have the flexibility to use either.

That's my plan too. Flex fuel (Moto-East) is in the box. Header is selected. Planning for a fall install.

Can you elaborate? I thought Shorai batteries with lithium iron, which is less likely to catch on fire? I understand it's not guaranteed, though I'm also learning about these as I go.

So what has people's experiences been with this kit? @Bramick @Jonsey ?

I will copy in the review I did on the FB track group of my experiences with it and comments from Mike @ Moto-East in reply.


Been waiting to update this post until I had it for several months and a number of track days with it to give an honest assessment. Some of the issues may not be actual issues but are thoughts I have had and hope others can share their thoughts on. Overall- excellent product and highly recommended for serious track folks wanting to run e85.

Let's start with the bad because that is what most of us really care about. First, it didn't come with instructions and while not overly complicated to figure out, it was not super easy for someone working with fuel system components for the first time. It also didn't help that one of the fuel lines had the wrong fitting on it, which made figuring out which line went where a bit more difficult. However, the guys were quick to respond to questions and helped me figure it out in no time.

Second, I needed to do a small amount of trimming on the base to get the tank to sit down all the way in it.

Third, the surge tank is in the engine compartment so it will heat up as the engine compartment does and warm the fuel. My hood is vented so should help this, but it may or may not cause some power loss from warmer fuel. The counter point is you don't have another fuel system component inside the cabin or in the trunk that then forces you to build a shield between the trunk and the passenger cabin to be properly safe.

Fourth, you have a fuel system component sitting right next to the battery. Any fuel leak can be catastrophic so I am not sure if this is truly a higher risk, but I have a fire suppression system installed and have a nozzle pointed right at the surge tank.

Finally, the fuel pump in the surge tank is pretty noisy. Doesn't bother me since this is mainly a track car, but it's certainly noticeable.

On to the good, this product does exactly what it is intended to do and does it very well. I previously couldn't get below 7/8 of a tank on e85 without fuel starving on a couple of high g left handed sweepers, which means I couldn't do a fuel session without issue. I have run the tank down to 1/4 tank now without any issues, which is awesome. Being able to run the car with a header and e85 has made tracking substantially more fun and dropped several seconds off my lap times. Overall, I am very pleased with the product and the purchase and would highly recommend it for people serious about running e85 on the track. This is a very well thought out and well built system.


Comments from Mike:

Thanks for the honest feedback Jason. We really value the feedback for this kind of stuff. The location has compromises for sure, though fortunately they are minor compared to the alternative of having a useless track car on e85 or the cost of the fuel cell. We couldn't make it a full session on e85 before running out of fuel on tight turns with the stock system. The noise is definitely there, not much to be done about that. A battery fire is bad news no matter what, but these batteries (PC680) are much less prone to that then say a lithium battery, another reason we chose that one. The heat plate in between does act like a heat shield to a degree. The trimming needed was likely due to the powdercoat. We'll have to keep an eye on that next time around. But overall I'm glad it is working for you!