What voids he warranty?
 

So obviously i'm sure most of us on this forum is going to mod this bad boy, but what mods specifically are going to void the warranty? I don't really plan on doing anything internal or FI for a couple years to let the market mature a bit, but would lets say, intake, header, exhaust void the warranty?

:thanks:

dont hack that ecu . I mean dont flash it

Lets say I do flash the ECU, many companies offer a "back to stock" flash now. Is that detectable?

I am pretty sure all ECU's will have a log in it to determine that.

Most modern ECUs have a 'flash counter' that counts the number of reflashes they have gotten. Now, the trick is to reset this counter, which the software might or might not do. I have the choice on my Golf TDi package to reset the counter or not. It becomes tricky when Subaru issue a patch for some issue and that ECU is flashed during a service, making the flash counter default to more than '1'....

so far it seems as if the ECU flash is what voids the warranty. So if I "assume" correctly, bolt-on will typically not void the warranty?

Stuff like exhaust, intake etc etc. will not void warranty.

Its not so much what voids the warranty, but if mods you have done can be determined to have caused the problem that you are trying to make the warranty claim about. It is very rare that you will do something to void the warranty outright, but with each mod you do, it is harder and harder to make a warranty claim if something goes wrong. Basically, you have to be able to prove that the mods didn't cause the problem.

Now, an ECU reflash/reprogram, if it could be proven, could make it very difficult to make a claim. Another example is the "Launch Control" fiasco (aka, the "Void Warranty" button) that hit the GT-Rs after their premier.

i think it depends on the country ?

in dubai, i have read the warranty agreement toyota offers with their cars, ANY modification to the car or engine voids warranty. thats what it says on their website too.

i guess that excludes changing the tires/rims, battery and painting the car.

Anything that makes the car more fun usually voids warranty........

Before i got my car i was talking to the head manager and he said, exhaust, intake, suspension, and splitting wires for power (I have blue lights on my car) will not void my warranty. This was in the U.S. and not sure if this will carry on to anyone.

My biggest concern is ECU. I want to do I/H/E w/ a lightweight crank pulley and that's about it for engine mods but I want to have it tuned afterward to maximize what I'm getting out of these.

I like the idea of flashing back to stock for a dealership visit and then flashing back to the prior program but if there is a counter to tell how many times the ECU has been flashed I need to know that I'll be able to read it after a trip to the dealer and reset it to the same point for the next trip.

I'm not sure if this is even doable. I've never had a new vehicle tuned before. My Evo was used when I got it and it was never an issue.

Correct, in the USA there is a law that a dealership or shop that is refusing warranty work (under standard warranty coverage) must prove that the aftermarket modification is what caused the failure, just as HunterGreene said. I have a fully-bolted and tuned MS3 that's had tons of warranty work done on it (for little things like TSBs and such), and my dealer never gave me any trouble.

Best advice would be to ask your dealer (or wherever you're taking the car for service) if they are mod friendly. I've seen dealers who will take cars that have built motors and run warranty repairs, and I've seen dealers who won't even touch a car if it has something simple like an intake on it. Even with the new(ish) law, some dealerships will fight you the whole way, and it's not worth the trouble unless you really have nowhere else to go.

NOTHING voids the whole warranty in the US.

The only thing that I could see that would do it would be having the car declared "totaled".

Otherwise, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act prevents a dealership from voiding your warranty due to a modification. The dealership has to show that the modification is the cause of the issue in order to deny a warranty claim. So they can't say no to fixing taillight condensation because you got aftermarket wheels. But they can deny your claim on a blown motor if you've had your ECU tuned.

So consider what you want to do with the car and what parts of the car are effected by your mods.

ECU Concerns
 

Some of the other 1st86ers can step in to correct me here if I misunderstood but I thought at the Long Beach event there was discussion around the ECU being open and whether or not changing it would void the warranty. The general answer seemed to be it wasn't going to be locked and changing it was allowed.

That said I suppose if you do something stupid/crazy it could be used to disallow warranty work.

So many people site the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act whenever this question comes up, but think about this scenario...

what if you slap on an intake, and your transmission fails. The dealer might say, well, the transmission wasn't design to take on the extra horsepower from your aftermarket intake. They deny your warranty. Then what? You might be able to get Toyota to help you convince the dealership to help you, but what if they don't? You could take them to court, but who do you think will have the better lawyers? All the while, your car is sitting there with a broken transmission.

Long story short, anything you mod will risk part of your warranty going away. The dealership may play along and help you out, but there's always a possibility of getting screwed.

Your example is a little extreme. With manufacturer warranties, the way it works is that they diagnose the problem, then call in a "warranty rep" from the region to inspect the car and review with the techs what the cause of problem was. If they can't show a direct link, as in literally a physical link between the mod and the damage, they will likely accept your claim.

Maybe I am taking things too literally, but In the case of an aftermarket intake affecting the transmission, there would have had to be something that showed, directly, that the intake had damaged the transmission. Without a dyno in the shop (which, last I checked, most shops don't have), they can't prove that the intake is creating enough HP/torque to damage the transmission.

There has to be solid data that shows the causality, or they are opening themselves up to lawsuits.

People often use the Mag/Moss warranty act as ammunition, but it really depends on what you modified and what the issue is, and whether or not you would be willing to hire a lawyer if the dealer denies a claim.

I have done a lot of research on modifying cars under warranty, and what I have determined is that you should probably call your service manager at the dealer(s) where you would have your warranty work done and ask them directly.

Personally I would be very reluctant to mod the ECU on a car under warranty unless I was willing to take the risk of not having my engine covered for any type of failure.

Exhaust, intake, should be straight forward. But again, dealerships are all different. Some may see a younger guy with a car that has been modified and try to deny warranty work because they think you abused the car.

It would be nice if Toyota and Subaru offered manufacturer backed custom performance parts.

I have seen VW dealers that actually offer the ECU mod at their dealership and you retain your warranty.

Bolt on mods won't void the warranty. Cold air intake is before the MAF, cat-back exhaust is after the O2 sensors so your ECU doesn't notice them. Suspension upgrades are all reversible as well. This car doesn't really need anything else. 230-250ps should be achievable with bolt on upgrades.

After your car is well paid for and the warranty is up, there will be a plethora of turbo kits and fuel/ECU tuning options on the market to have fun with. I can see 300ps being the magic number for future 86 tuners in 3-5 years. Toyota was smart enough to know this and built a drivetrain that can handle it.

Just keep all your stock parts and be willing to re-install them if you want to take your car in to the dealer to avoid any conflict.

Dealerships are independent of Subaru of America (SoA) and any warranty work they perform are paid for by Subaru to the dealership. The difference is dealerships get paid only a fraction of what they would typically get from a customer paying out of pocket. In the dealership's eyes, it is in their best interest to deny warranty work if they are busy working on other revenue generating repairs or maintenance work. Reps are only called in for major work, and that's just the dealership making sure that SoA would over the cost of the repair to the dealership, so they don't get screwed/denied payment by SoA. Neither the dealership or the SoA rep are in it for the sake of the owner of the car. They are there to get the customer and the car in and out as soon as possible since warranty work isn't a revenue generating business.

With the above example, this has happened, not saying its likely, but it has happened before. Being an Evo owner, I'm no stranger to dealerships denying warranty work. They don't have to throw any car on the dyno. They flat out just deny doing the repair. Most folks don't have a 2nd car to drive while this gets settled. You can try suing them or taking them to court, but good luck finding a lawyer to take on your (relatively) pliddly case, not to mention the added time/expenses on your side, while your car still sits there broken/depreciating away.

All I'm saying is...modify anything, and its ammunition for the dealership/SoA to deny warranty work.

I doubt that is accurate information for U.A.E.

Can you provide a source/link to validate that claim?

When it comes to aftermarket parts, if the aftermarket item could have affected the item that needs to be replaced by warranty, then will most likely be rejected. For example, if you alter/tweak the ECU and the engine dies, then you probably voided warranty. If you alter/tweak the ECU and you're shocks/suspension blows out, you are still under warranty.

hi

heres the quote

" What is not covered
Repairs and adjustments required as a result of normal wear and tear, misuse e.g. racing, overloading, negligence, modification, alteration, tampering, disconnection, improper adjustments or repairs, accident and use of add-on parts/materials. Tyres, batteries, leather, rubbers, plastics are excluded from the 4th and 5th year of Warranty cover."

i asked a guy from toyota he explained it to me like this " if you modify your car we will not fix it for you. "

from this webpage
http://www.toyota.ae/wps/portal/!ut/...vZ0FBIS9nQSEh/

Fair enough--sounds like my experience with Toyota has been fantastic, then. Glad I'm going for the FR-S, in that case.

For once, I'm glad I don't live in Dubai.

It really comes down to your individual dealer, and to be specific, your service manager. At the end of the day this guy can make your life easy if you mod the car or very difficult. I had a very honest conversation with my service manager for my current car (Genesis Coupe) and he told me flat out that intake and exhaust should not cause any problems for a warranty claim. He told me that ECU was another story and gave me a wink...

This might help:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4306

haha, i made a thread complaining about the price of the car in dubai, turns out we have the cheapest models after america of course.

some countries have them priced as much as 160,000 dollars

incase you're wondering its about 34,000 dollars for a fully loaded model.

What costs them more, to fix your car or pay their lawyers X number of hours to fight you in court? That will factor into their thought process as well.

There is so much mis-nformation here.

Listen to the guys who say, any modification can be justification to deny warrenty work.

As posted above, the dealer is in the drivers seat not you.

All they have to do is deny. You have to pay a lawyer 2500 bucks just to get started in a suit. It's an uphill battle.

Considering an engine/tranny are > $2500 to fix out of warranty, I'd say it's worth it.

You think it will only cost you 2500 to hire a lawyer to represent you in the case like this? lol

Like I mentioned before, it is unlikely you'd find a lawyer to represent you in a case like this because its chump change to them, and not worth their time. You might be able to go to small claims, but again, theres a cap on how much you can claim, you're losing out on your own time, your car's still broken while you try to get this resolved, and at the end of the day, there's a chance you still lose.

Not to say it wouldn't be a royal pain in the ass and probably expensive (if you go the lawyer route) but I don't think most dealerships will be that much of a ****.

I had the clutch finger(s) go bad on my Si with 50K miles on it. I had i/h/e and they didn't try to deny my claim. They replaced the clutch, pressure plate, and first three gears under warranty (and did the TSB on third gear).

Yes, but they'd have to really be looking for it.

It depends on what bolt-ons. Exhausts rarely cause any concerns. Intakes might, depending on what goes wrong. But if you have more significant bolt-ons like a turbo, that will be a pain in the ass in the event of almost any warranty claim.

That's the beauty of staying stock, since you won't get hassled unless you are just stupid and broke your car out of negligence. Besides, the vast majority of "modders" who want to do stuff but are concerned with preserving their warranties likely haven't pushed their car it its absolute limits.

dumb question. can cosmetic mods void warranty? led light swap, opti-coat, etc etc.

In my experience with light cosmetic changes like that...no.

But the nightmare scenarios are that they find that opti-coat actually exacerbates body rusting, a piece of your horrifically fitted body kit breaks off and gets jammed in the suspension causing you to pop a weld, the LEDs are of crappy quality and burst into flames...etc.

but most of these won't happen, or are 1-in-a-million chances.

No. If your dealer tries to void your warranty for a cosmetic mod you should probably find a new dealer.

i see. i was asking because there was a thread about how someone changed their dome light and it ended up messing with their radio when they put the car in reverse. not sure if electrical issues are even covered in warranty, and if something like this would void it.

That right there is a puzzle. If the bulb wasn't defective, that points to a defect in the wiring, but what if putting the bulb in caused the defect in the wiring?

Chicken or the Egg questions always make me want to :bonk:

lol i feel like i shouldnt do anything to the car once i get it. im gonna try to find the thread when i get back home, maybe he figured out what went wrong.

Seriously, just keep the car stock. The car is still plenty of fun that way. Enjoy the warranty, or modify the car and roll the dice with the warranty. You have to pay to play.