Cam timing on Dyno
 

Hey guys.

I was at the tuner shop yesterday for dyno tune.

The cam timing reading is not moving while the car is on dynopack, even after 4 times of flashing.

However, it's back to work when we pull the car out for street dyno.

Have any of folks here had this issue before?

PS. tuning software - ECUtek

Not seen this on a Dynapack before. There are a number of things that need to happen for the cams to become active, namely clutch pedal not depressed and at a standstill. Oil temp also comes into play.

+1 on what @Kodename47 said


After a flash or ecu reset cams wont activate unless you start car and let it idle for about a minute.


Their may be some other conditions as well.


If think if you press accelerator or move car before the minute is up the cams wont activate , until the car is turned off then started and let idle for a minute stationary (wheels not turning)

Your tuner just wasted 100% of that dyno time.

That's not entirely true. I've seen the cams become active immediately after a flash if the conditions are met. Once you've done a dyno pull you can just flash, clear codes and fire it up and go again. Also hitting the throttle won't necessarily prevent its calibration, once back at idle it will sort itself out again.

Yeah all true, but if you do the start idle for a miniute you seem to be good good to go every time.

Probably in your climate ;) I can leave it to idle for a minute and the cams wont be active as the oil temp isn't hot enough. Drive for 30 seconds to the end of the road and idle again and they'll usually start to work.

It's worth noting that I will allow for the engine to idle for a minute on a cold flash, however if the engine is warm I wait until the cams show signs of movement. If you're using ECUtek then some AVCS parameters log to the nearest degree, others to 1 dp.

We've tried everything like oil temp hits 80 and he tuned quite a lot of twins from before. He did a FR-S that has the same issue with the cam timing but solved after a flash. However, didnt happened on my car

So I was wondering why.

"Tooner"

Flash the stock tune back to car


cams work = yes = problem with tune
cams work = no = problem with car

Nah wrong TUNA


https://timewellness.files.wordpress...0&h=320&crop=1



Actually canned TUNA

We've had one car last year that was similar. Would not set the cams no matter how long you idle. What we found is that if you take it up to road speeds on the dyno and then decel in 3rd gear a few times, they would then set. Not sure exactly why, certainly nothing about the setup as it was identical to a dozen others.

Had similar behavior happen, immediately after flashes, when doing road driving. No amount of deceling would fix it -- a power cycle would though.

My MoTeC programming doesn't have this problem, however. The cams move every time, lol

Mine always work flashing cold. But may not activate after flashing hot and idling for a couple minutes until a restart.

Add me to the list one minute they are fine the next they are not working. I'm beginning to wonder if its a ECUTEK bug in the software.

Ask him what he set the idle to. One of the preconditions is an idle below 1050 RPM. If your idle is set higher than that the exhaust cams never unlock. Figured this out pretty quick the first time I tuned a car with 1300 cc injectors on pump gas.

And the best cam unlock procedure is just select exhaust angle 1 for live data and let the car idle till it starts bouncing off 0 - once ti does tap the throttle, cam timing will change and you are GTG.

my exhaust cams are always slow to come back online. Not sure why. Sometimes it takes a few min.

I don't know if I'm having this same issue, but after a flashing my car, my exhaust cam will only move from 0 to 2 degrees, and no amount of idling will make it change.

Only way I have gotten the cams to move is to drive around for a few minutes and then the exhaust cams become fully activated, but even after the cams activate, I feel the car is slower than stock and this is the tune I had done a few months ago and had no issues.

I'd like to bump this thread.

I was in for dyno time (tune update) today and it looked like my cam timing was not "waking up." Baseline pull looked decent enough - but then (I assume after reflash) the cam timing just died. It was reported to me that the cam timing was simply not changing. We started talking about possible cam gear issues (May 2013 build date). But I've had no CELs.

Once I was driving home, logging with Torque app, I could see timing was what I expected.

Are there any other details or suggestions into what could be taking place here?
- ECUTek tune for reference.

Thanks for any data that can be shared.

Very few people if any outside subaru engineers, know the complete logic in the ecu software that determines if the cam vvt will become active.

Their is likely a sequence of events that must occurr for the cam timing to become active after an ecu flash or reset.

these likely include
coolant temp
oil temp
some timer that activates only after idle rpm falls below say 1000 rpm, for about a minute

Ignition advance multiplier must be greater than a threshold think its about 0.2 in stock rom this is switch between base safe and normal cam tables, another threshold about 0.7 for normal\safe.

Dyno may also upset cars stability\vsc system , two wheel dyno front wheels stationary so vsc\traction system likely gets upset and may signal ecu to keep in some form of low power mode.
even 4 wheel dyno may upset vsc if different loads applied to frtont back wheels.

perople often report that cam timing comes good once car off dyno and driven for short period.

so that may indicate it was traction\vsc related.

its all guessing rearly

Did you try turning it off and on again?

60% of the time it works every time.

Thanks for the reply. Today my tuner logged for a good 90 mins or so with fresh flashes, idle, load etc. What he found was the cam would only go +/- 1 degree. At start it looked like -18 and it never went anywhere.

I have no CEL / MIL. DTC is clean.

We're debating replacing the cam actuators, as this has worked for a few folks. I don't personally have the equipment to log / check for cam settings in motion. Maybe I can try that this weekend.

Any additional data would greatly help. Replacing all 4 of the cam actuators will be a very costly endeavor....

So instead of turning it off and on again, you'll spend a few thou pulling the motor apart?

Of course it was turned off and back on again... :sigh:

Really? Because you said:


"Today my tuner logged for a good 90 mins or so with fresh flashes, idle, load etc."

"Baseline pull looked decent enough - but then (I assume after reflash) the cam timing just died."

"Once I was driving home, logging with Torque app, I could see timing was what I expected."


There's nothing there about restarting the car after flashing. Just that AVCS DID NOT work after flashing, and DID work on your way home.

Maybe you should read the thread, it's only 2 pages.


If you did restart and idle the car without touching the throttle a couple of times and the cams still don't work, then I'm sorry for your loss.

not sure which tune system you using but maybe after flash complete an car starts, remove abattery terminal and press brake pedal , reconnect battery after a minute or so, thiswill reset all control modules in car in case one is sending something weird to ecu causing the problem.

also not all cel codes will light cel, they are just stored check with scanner

if you dont have injector changes maybe try flashing back a stock tune to car.

start let it idle for a couple of minutes without touching throttle an see if cams are active at low rpm and load, that will eliminate some weird bug in tune causing problem.

ECUTEK is being used. I'll relay the thought of disconnecting the battery and giving that a shot post flash.

We did scan for all DTC, CEL, MIL codes, ECU had nothing to report.

Thanks again for the knowledge share.

Oh we did try stock flash. Same issue.

you might also want to check what version of ecutek racerom patch your tune is latest racerom patch is version 9, their were some bugs in earlier versions with idling and speed density carnt remnemer anything on cams but always best to be using latest racerom patches.

hmmm ok thats rearly starting to look like a hardware issue with car, those cam vvt problems can be a real pain in the arse to fix as it can be actuators , oil control valves, cam sproket or even the ecu, all expensive parts. See the TSB section in this forum their is link to tsb for cam issues one has extensive testing proceedure to work out whats the issue.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...0&d=1352490977


but i think i would do the position sensor clearance one first as its cheap and easy

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1375302652


although it should be throwing cel codes, if its only a problem after flashing and no cel codes , while its annoying it might be best to leave it alone if its ok after that

Thanks for your continued replies. It's greatly appreciated.

The shop I regular stays rather up to date, no worries there. At this point were probably looking at mechanical repairs....

Such a bummer. I'll get some in-motions logs pulled soon. Just need to prepare a laptop.

Oh, my May 2015 build VIN is ~ 2000 *after* they started the countermeasures in production. I would find it highly unlikely if I didnt already have TSB 11-130-13R implemented.

Starts on: D*607924
Mine is: D*610152

My local shop has seen a few cars (2013 BRZ/FRS) that have sprocket issues. So we're likely going to start there. The referenced cars also had no CEL/MIL...

This is so annoying.

Did my own logging today while driving around on errands. Results were interesting.... cams looked to work just fine.

So; I'm only "crippled" on the dyno plugged up to the tuners laptop. Bug in the code? Rom version differences? I'm so confused...

yeah it probably some weird combination of events thats causing it, maybe it does not like the ecutek software connected straight after flash who knows, if that the only time it dooes it dont worry .

Issue is, we're trying to update my tune. They cant view the VVT or get appropriate power on dyno pulls because its seems to not function after an ECU flash.

When we revert my tune back to how it was and I drive home; BAM the VVT comes back.

It's bizarre. I wonder if the baseline ROM they're using is incompatible with my ECU firmware? Bug in the tune?

you said it did it on stcck tune ? so that rearly counts out tune.

its possible they have updated rom in ecu so if you know the original calid like D00C then see it matches, however early roms did get updates anything prior to B01x is updated to B01x

I had the dealer update my base ecu before I started modding. My first ecutek tune session was fine. After that, flashing a new rom the vvt just doesn't function on the dyno. Once I start normal driving (or hard driving) it functions just fine.

Doesn't matter what tune is flashed by the tuner on the dyno. VVT doesn't respond there. Once I'm driving, they work. Have logs to share if you're interested.

Quoted so you can see the post above. Happy to post or pm logs if it would help the troubleshooting / discussion

Missed this reply somehow.

I'm rather sure they shut off/restarted a few times. I was not in the dyno room the whole time. Next attempt, I will be. I'll make sure we flash, start & idle for a bit. Shut off and wait for a bit. Start up and idle to check.

Logging via ECUTek now as well - VVT/Cams working just fine on the street.